Stunning 6 shot group at 300 y tough to beat this No Scope
- Thread starter manitou210
- Start date
The dime sized circles are patches that score markers put on targets after each shot at Connaught and other long-range clubs. There has been no photoshop work done on this target.
Not sure the exact size of the black is on target he was using but I will get back on this post and get a picture of his rifle and post it
Thanks Scott for letting other members know you where at range when he shot this group to verify it was done. Dime was put to show a comparison of size of group, I will see shooter and measure with actual size of group.
This shooter is a perfectionist loading his ammo Brass is prepped and sorted by weight all primer pockets uniformed, necks turned,bullets are all measured off ogive meplate sorted and
trimmed and pointed on a Hoover system.His electronic powder measure cost him over $1800 .0001 of a grain and he is not like most other TR shooters who often don't clean barrels and will shoot 500 rounds or more before cleaning, he keeps his clean like a benchrest shooter.
manitou
Seen videos like that on You Tube. Rifle in a jig and all they do is cycle the bolt back and forth. They don't even touch the rifle or aim. Bullets obviously go in the same place with high end equipment, there is no possibility of human error.
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
The target in the photograph is a DCRA 300 yard target. The aiming black is 22" in diameter and you can just see the edge of the black in the top left corner. So it's about 11" from the bottom-centre of the photo to the top left.
The V-bull (castellated ring in the middle) is 2.75" in diameter, the 5-ring (the smallest solid ring) is 5.5" in diameter. The round black shot pasters are about 3/4" diameter.
By eye, that's about a 1" group. Even though this is a 300 yard target, the shooting was done at 300m (328y), so this groups is about 0.3 MOA
Six shots into one 0.3 MOA at 300 yards is very good but it's not so unlikely as to automatically be a BS flag.
This photo has been posted here because this is a pretty darn good group, so it's not unreasonable to expect that it's a fair bit smaller than what can usually be shot (that's why it's interesting and why it has been posted, after all!!).
What can a good target rifle shoot (i.e. the raw gun plus ammo)? And what can a good iron-sights target rifle shooter shoot?
A rifle of this sort with good ammo should be able to reliably fire ten shots into 0.4 MOA at 300, with some rifles being capable of 0.3MOA or or even 0.2 MOA.
A topnotch iron sights shooter, in good conditions and with a bit of favourable luck on his side, can put ten out of ten shots in to the 2.75" diameter V-bull - that would be a score of "50.10V", or "fifty with ten vees". This is a very rare score but it can be done (I've never done it myself but I've gotten 50.9V once or twice a year).
The shooter who fired this group, in ordinary conditions at 300m, having a good shoot, might typically fire a score of 50.6V or 50.7V at 300. So from competition experience he'd expect to have 60% to 70% of his shots land in the ~1MOA-diameter V-bull. So you can well understand why he would be extremely please with these 6 shots... however I can pretty much guarantee you that he understands that this is a combination of good shooting AND a good rifle AND good ammo AND a particularly generous dose of good fortune. Still, it is right to enjoy little moments like this.
To have an idea of what good iron sights shooters do, have a look at the results from this year's national championships:
http://dcra.ca/results/2013/CFRC/a639.htm
This is the "short range agg", so all the shots fired at 300m. There are a total of 37 shots fired, so the highest score possible is 37*5=185 points, and the highest V-count possible is 37 vees. So "HPS" ("highest possible score") is 185V37.
You can see that the top score was 185V30 - so he shot 30 out of 37 of his shots into the ~1-MOA v-bull, and 37 out of 37 of his shots into the ~2-MOA 5-ring. Twenty shooters (out of a field of about 200 shooters) managed a score of either 184 or 185, with a vee-count in the low to mid 20s - so a typical vee count of 65% or so over the long haul.
I believe that this group is real and it actually happened under the conditions stated. I also believe:
- the shooter would not be able to do it on a second attempt
- I would not be able to do it in one (or even ten) attempts
- the winner of the 2013 Canadian Short Range Agg would not be able to do it in ten attempts
Good shooting Oleg, good gunsmithing Ian, and I look forward to shooting with and against you next year!
The V-bull (castellated ring in the middle) is 2.75" in diameter, the 5-ring (the smallest solid ring) is 5.5" in diameter. The round black shot pasters are about 3/4" diameter.
By eye, that's about a 1" group. Even though this is a 300 yard target, the shooting was done at 300m (328y), so this groups is about 0.3 MOA
Six shots into one 0.3 MOA at 300 yards is very good but it's not so unlikely as to automatically be a BS flag.
This photo has been posted here because this is a pretty darn good group, so it's not unreasonable to expect that it's a fair bit smaller than what can usually be shot (that's why it's interesting and why it has been posted, after all!!).
What can a good target rifle shoot (i.e. the raw gun plus ammo)? And what can a good iron-sights target rifle shooter shoot?
A rifle of this sort with good ammo should be able to reliably fire ten shots into 0.4 MOA at 300, with some rifles being capable of 0.3MOA or or even 0.2 MOA.
A topnotch iron sights shooter, in good conditions and with a bit of favourable luck on his side, can put ten out of ten shots in to the 2.75" diameter V-bull - that would be a score of "50.10V", or "fifty with ten vees". This is a very rare score but it can be done (I've never done it myself but I've gotten 50.9V once or twice a year).
The shooter who fired this group, in ordinary conditions at 300m, having a good shoot, might typically fire a score of 50.6V or 50.7V at 300. So from competition experience he'd expect to have 60% to 70% of his shots land in the ~1MOA-diameter V-bull. So you can well understand why he would be extremely please with these 6 shots... however I can pretty much guarantee you that he understands that this is a combination of good shooting AND a good rifle AND good ammo AND a particularly generous dose of good fortune. Still, it is right to enjoy little moments like this.
To have an idea of what good iron sights shooters do, have a look at the results from this year's national championships:
http://dcra.ca/results/2013/CFRC/a639.htm
This is the "short range agg", so all the shots fired at 300m. There are a total of 37 shots fired, so the highest score possible is 37*5=185 points, and the highest V-count possible is 37 vees. So "HPS" ("highest possible score") is 185V37.
You can see that the top score was 185V30 - so he shot 30 out of 37 of his shots into the ~1-MOA v-bull, and 37 out of 37 of his shots into the ~2-MOA 5-ring. Twenty shooters (out of a field of about 200 shooters) managed a score of either 184 or 185, with a vee-count in the low to mid 20s - so a typical vee count of 65% or so over the long haul.
I believe that this group is real and it actually happened under the conditions stated. I also believe:
- the shooter would not be able to do it on a second attempt
- I would not be able to do it in one (or even ten) attempts
- the winner of the 2013 Canadian Short Range Agg would not be able to do it in ten attempts
Good shooting Oleg, good gunsmithing Ian, and I look forward to shooting with and against you next year!
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paperslayer
Regular
- Location
- Chilliwack
Although it is a nice group, one group like that means little. Make it a ten shot group and duplicate it and I would be impressed.
- Location
- chilliwack BC.
not impossible. If the rifle and ammo are good enough, then its possible. Just highly improbable.
there are "super humans" around.
Now if he could do this on 5x10 round groups, that would be absolutely insane
there are "super humans" around.
Now if he could do this on 5x10 round groups, that would be absolutely insane
I'm sure the shooter is more than aware the likelihood of a repeat performance. But with all the negative rhetoric I am also sure that he is basking in the confidence of his new rifle and that he has no worry of competition from the nonbelievers. They've beaten themselves right from the getgo.
It was funny, of course I didn't see the dime from this distance, it is impossible, the target looks like a dime from this distance. I recognize many nicknames. Looks like the
Canadian F-class team is on this thread. All of these guys can shoot like this or even better. Ian, the barrel shoots like a laser, good job. What would we do if you decided to quit and play golf all day long?. Kevin and Will picked this jewel for me. By the way, Kevin is #8 in the world, RESPECT! And of course to the Canadian team that got 2nd place in the world this year, good work guys. I miss F-class.
Oleg
Rifle:
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
AlexNoks, that is some fine shooting. Obviously all the parts have come together. You do know that you are 1 scope base away from F TR? 
Nice scale and set up. Granite table top? Love the Lee powder measure in the background.
All the best for next seasons matches. Too bad, you don't have anymore EXCUSES...
for those that do not know, that white "box" on the LHS of the pic is likely worth as much as some rifles. This gents loads are consistent to the KERNEL of powder.
At 100yds, this rifle is capable of shooting in the high 1's, low 2's. Very nicely done...
Jerry
Nice scale and set up. Granite table top? Love the Lee powder measure in the background.
All the best for next seasons matches. Too bad, you don't have anymore EXCUSES...
for those that do not know, that white "box" on the LHS of the pic is likely worth as much as some rifles. This gents loads are consistent to the KERNEL of powder.
At 100yds, this rifle is capable of shooting in the high 1's, low 2's. Very nicely done...
Jerry
gunrunner8
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, B.C.
I have similar Palma rifle build with single shot Swing action Krieger 30" long 13" twist ss match barrel, Anschutz open peep sights etc etc and out 200+ or so shots fired this year I was able one time to have a lucky group of five shots into 1-5/16" at 300yds in ideal weather. I wonder if I ever have that kind of luck again, usually I am good for double that or slightly less. I say one lucky group like that means nothing.
For all those naysayers that are calling this a lucky group, once in a lifetime group, or believe the stars would have to be in line and it is not repeatable, please come out and give it a try.
I am sure AlexNoks would be glad to give you some lessons. If you have a look at the results from the Canadian Fullbore Rifle Championships over the last few years, you will see that AlexNoks did not just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.
I am sure AlexNoks would be glad to give you some lessons. If you have a look at the results from the Canadian Fullbore Rifle Championships over the last few years, you will see that AlexNoks did not just fall off the turnip truck yesterday.
AlexNoks, that is some fine shooting. Obviously all the parts have come together. You do know that you are 1 scope base away from F TR?
At 100yds, this rifle is capable of shooting in the high 1's, low 2's. Very nicely done...
Jerry
I believe the transition to TR by Mr. Oleg came from F TR roots... I bought his old F rig from him a year and a half ago and it had more capability than my own capacity could appreciate. The posted performance is proof to the 'what gadget do I need to buy next to shoot half decently?' crowd around here that it's the archer and not the arrow that counts. I have a feeling that AlexNoks has forgotten more about F TR and TR shooting than most of the forum 'gurus' currently retain. And not to leave out, Ian does exceptional work- we're lucky to have such skilled 'local' builder.
