Subsonic .223 with Titegroup
- Thread starter dirtybarry
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Selling reloaded ammo is a no no on the site.
But, someone offering to assist for no monetary gain might work.
Rob
He's not talking about this site. He's talking in general. "Illegal" isn't the term to use when discussing CGNs powers.
It's illegal in real life as well as being verboten here.
You can also assist for monetary or other gain all you like. There's absolutely nothing illegal or wrong with that.
I really enjoy playing with reduced loads. But I must confess, I have not figured out how to make rounds for less than .22lr ammo...?
a primer by its self is worth about 5c. I think average walmart price of a brick of bulk .22lr is $40 (8c./rd). 3c. for powder and projectile seems tough to stay under to me.
The fun factor of reduced loads is through the roof mind you so I'm not complaining... Im all ears though!
a primer by its self is worth about 5c. I think average walmart price of a brick of bulk .22lr is $40 (8c./rd). 3c. for powder and projectile seems tough to stay under to me.
The fun factor of reduced loads is through the roof mind you so I'm not complaining... Im all ears though!
Neither can I. Not sure anybody here is saying any one powder is superior. I've never seen TinStar, but I do have Trail Boss. I also use Unique and 700X in light loads, have done for years. I load with a digital scale and dipper, for each cartridge. I load for 30-30, 32WS, 308, 303Br, 30-06, 8x57 and a couple of others.
Two of the reasons I use Unique and 700X is economics. I scored 10 lbs of Unique for $50, and 8 lbs of 700X for same. At 10-12 grains per round, that's a lot of plinking. Around 10,000 @7000 grains/lb. Mind, I'm not going to the Olympics with my cork gun loads!
So, I tried out 6 different loads of .223/5.56 last weekend. They were 3.2 gr and 3.3 gr of Titegroup, and 8.0, 9.0 and 10.0 grains of IMR4227 along with some heavy loads of 26.6 gr of Ramshot Tac all under Western Metal 55 gr FMJBT bullets.
The Titegroup rounds were very quiet and didn't sound like they were supersonic but no chrono to be sure. The IMR loads were taken from the data for .22 Hornet and were still very mild with hardly any recoil. At the same point of aim they landed about an inch higher than the Titegroup loads at 25m. The TAC loads were loud and fast and landed just slightly higher still. Even the 10.0 gr 4227 loads wouldn't cycle an AR though but worked just fine in a bolt gun. No significant difference in the horizontal plane between any of them. Pretty much textbook vertical changes only. That was interesting. Will definitely be loading up some more 4227 lrounds.
The Titegroup rounds were very quiet and didn't sound like they were supersonic but no chrono to be sure. The IMR loads were taken from the data for .22 Hornet and were still very mild with hardly any recoil. At the same point of aim they landed about an inch higher than the Titegroup loads at 25m. The TAC loads were loud and fast and landed just slightly higher still. Even the 10.0 gr 4227 loads wouldn't cycle an AR though but worked just fine in a bolt gun. No significant difference in the horizontal plane between any of them. Pretty much textbook vertical changes only. That was interesting. Will definitely be loading up some more 4227 lrounds.
I'm resurrecting this thread because in the near future, if all goes well, I'll be buying a NR Black Creek Labs MRX Bronco Howitzer, 223 Wylde, that has a 9.5" barrel. This firearm is going to be a purely fun gun to punch holes in targets at the local indoor range once in awhile. No outside shooting. It will be shot on the range's 40-yard, long-gun range, as well as on the pistol range, so the maximum range it will ever be shot is 40-yards. Accuracy is not that important beyond keeping the shots somewhere on the target. I'll install pic-rail iron sights.
(27 years ago, when my wife and I had a winter home in Florida, we shot our three 38-cal revolvers and one 22-caliber revolver every week at a local indoor range and had concealed carry permits for the the two smallest which had 2" and 2.5" barrels. We bought inexpensive locally-machine-re-loaded ammunition for the 38s and got some money back for returning the brass to the re-loading place. Talk about gun culture! All of these revolvers had the OEM iron sights only, so we're used to aiming with them. When we sold the winter home after 9/11, we sold the handguns at the indoor range via consignment. That was the last time we shot handguns. The upcoming howitzer is about as close as we'll ever get to a handgun again in our elderly lives.)
My wife still likes to shoot, so to enhance her shooting experience with the little cannon, I'd like to create some really low recoil, relatively quiet ammo using an inexpensive Classic Lee Loader, 223 Remington. I think that it is safe to say that what I want to do is the polar opposite of what the vast majority of relaoders want to accomplish, but this thread was started by a like-minded individual, so maybe I'm wrong on that.
Anyway, I've watched several Utube videos of the Lee loader being used to reload what I assume ends up being more or less typical commercial 223 rounds. I see that the kit comes with a chart that's mated to the kit's powder scoop, which is understandable, but the scoop is probably not going to be suitable for measuring custom quantities of powder such as the one mentioned by dirtybarry in his first post, but maybe I'm wrong on that, too. Maybe there's something I misssed. But if I am right, I assume that a digital or small beam balance would have to be used to accurately measure the "3.1 grains of Titegroup" powder along with the projectile mentioned in the first post.
One specific thing that was not mentioned in this thread (unless I missed it) is the length of the firearm's barrel. Again, our upcoming firearm is going to have a 9.5" barrel. Does a barrel this short put this "rifle" more into the "pistol" category when it comes to reloading specifications?
I'd really appreciate hearing any advice on how to accomplish what I'd like to do with this little fun gun.
Thanks.
(27 years ago, when my wife and I had a winter home in Florida, we shot our three 38-cal revolvers and one 22-caliber revolver every week at a local indoor range and had concealed carry permits for the the two smallest which had 2" and 2.5" barrels. We bought inexpensive locally-machine-re-loaded ammunition for the 38s and got some money back for returning the brass to the re-loading place. Talk about gun culture! All of these revolvers had the OEM iron sights only, so we're used to aiming with them. When we sold the winter home after 9/11, we sold the handguns at the indoor range via consignment. That was the last time we shot handguns. The upcoming howitzer is about as close as we'll ever get to a handgun again in our elderly lives.)
My wife still likes to shoot, so to enhance her shooting experience with the little cannon, I'd like to create some really low recoil, relatively quiet ammo using an inexpensive Classic Lee Loader, 223 Remington. I think that it is safe to say that what I want to do is the polar opposite of what the vast majority of relaoders want to accomplish, but this thread was started by a like-minded individual, so maybe I'm wrong on that.
Anyway, I've watched several Utube videos of the Lee loader being used to reload what I assume ends up being more or less typical commercial 223 rounds. I see that the kit comes with a chart that's mated to the kit's powder scoop, which is understandable, but the scoop is probably not going to be suitable for measuring custom quantities of powder such as the one mentioned by dirtybarry in his first post, but maybe I'm wrong on that, too. Maybe there's something I misssed. But if I am right, I assume that a digital or small beam balance would have to be used to accurately measure the "3.1 grains of Titegroup" powder along with the projectile mentioned in the first post.
One specific thing that was not mentioned in this thread (unless I missed it) is the length of the firearm's barrel. Again, our upcoming firearm is going to have a 9.5" barrel. Does a barrel this short put this "rifle" more into the "pistol" category when it comes to reloading specifications?
I'd really appreciate hearing any advice on how to accomplish what I'd like to do with this little fun gun.
Thanks.
And the question is ..................Impressive thread revival! But you bring an interesting scientific question...
I played around with a Titegroup load for my BCL Bison. The 1-8" twist rate really preferred heavier 69gr & 77gr bullets. Groups opened up to ~8" @ 100y with 55gr bullets. I tried H335 and 5744. The Titegroup loads were just for our indoor 17y range. Groups ~6" @ 50y, and ~1" @ 17y. What twist rate does Bronco have?
Thanks! You're fortunate to have a 17 yard indoor range. I envy you.
BCL specs state the twist rate in the Bronco Howitzer with the 9.5" barrel as 1-8", just like your Bison. BTW, what is your Bison's barrel length?
That's a nice spreadsheet, especially the rightmost column with Titegroup powder (Test Batch TB000971). I assume that the 1 through 5 numbers under each Test Batch # means 5 shots/cartridges in each batch, correct? Were you attempting to achieve subsonic or just a slower supersonic? Was there a reason that you did not lower the load of powder a bit more to try to create a subsonic load? You were getting awfully close. (I now realize that I'm going to have to add to this project's shopping list a fairly accurate chronograph. Otherwise I'd just be, heh, shooting in the dark when it comes to fps.)
Was the Titegroup load, primer, C.O.L. combination that appears in the rightmost column your own choice, or was it a recommended combination in a reference source such as Hodgdon? (Or did you start off with a recommended combo and then tweak it to your taste, ending up with the combination in your spreadsheet?)
A 6" group at 50 or even 40 yards with iron sights would be just fine with me, so I'll probably start off with a 55 or even lighter projectile.
Thanks again for all the information and data.
Where do u live?
Pop by my range and I’ll share sown with ya.
I run a titegroup sub with 77gr Matchburners. Pretty awesome and actually quite accurate even to 100.
Serious drop but consistent. Also had good results with 75gr hornady hpbt.
Same with 308. I also load super low V rounds for my 308 and 243 rifles using H4895 at 60%.
Still wish I had some trailboss but it does work.
My 16” ruger ranch does just that.
75gr hornady hpbt and 77gr barnes matchburners.
Both shoot very well.
My Bison has a 16" barrel. I wasn't actually trying to develop a subsonic load. I had a flat of 55gr Hornady FMJ's to use up and found the 1-8" twist rate was too fast for them. I thought a slower speed would help them stabilize better.
I do my load testing in 5 shot groups and run a chrono (because I love data lol). The 3.6gr of Titegroup came from the Hodgdon reloading reference website.
I found some references for a load with Bluedot that grouped well. The highlighted loads showed promise, I think I was able to get 1.5" groups at 100y, but still not as good as 69gr & 77gr reloads. But it will do for plinking ammo
So the difference in length between your Bison's barrel and that of the Howitzer would be 6.5 inches. Your average velocity on your first spreadsheet was 1334 fps. If you loaded that same cartridge into the Howitzer, how much would you guess the fps would be reduced -- would the projectile drop to below the speed of sound?My Bison has a 16" barrel. I wasn't actually trying to develop a subsonic load. I had a flat of 55gr Hornady FMJ's to use up and found the 1-8" twist rate was too fast for them. I thought a slower speed would help them stabilize better.
I do my load testing in 5 shot groups and run a chrono (because I love data lol). The 3.6gr of Titegroup came from the Hodgdon reloading reference website.
I found some references for a load with Bluedot that grouped well. The highlighted loads showed promise, I think I was able to get 1.5" groups at 100y, but still not as good as 69gr & 77gr reloads. But it will do for plinking ammo
View attachment 1081052
How much recoil was there when firing a 1334 fps, 55 grain round compared to a 2900 fps, 75 grain commercial round?
Thanks again.
Apparently you would lose ~25fps per inch of barrel, so you would be close, but maybe still super-sonic. Titegroup is a fast pistol/shotgun powder though, so maybe the drop in speed may not be as much as with a slower rifle powder.
My Bison came stock with a muzzle brake, so even 69gr & 77gr factory ammo has relatively low recoil compared to say a Taipan. The 55gr Titegroup felt like shooting 22lr out of my CZ 455. You could look at mounting a muzzle brake onto the Howitzer if you are looking to reduce felt recoil.
I wonder if that would work with these Frontier plated bullets that I've been sitting on because they explode when leaving my faster twist barrel (only explanation I can think of when I can't even get it on poster paper at 50 yards).
So would target shooting, because all you're doing is burning components to "just" make holes in paper. But if that's what we enjoy doing so be it, it's amazing how we relax.
I agree 100%.
I would add that in the case of the 223 Remington caliber in particular, the array of ammo available is mind boggling. For example, should I decide to up the ante of excitement, all I have to do fire some commercial high performance stuff and get the big sound and the big flash and more recoil, or reload my own rounds with that same high-performance, high accuracy objective, which should also be fun.
The low-speed, low-recoil, relatively low noise rounds "expand the horizon" of where to shoot, versus the high performance rounds.
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