subsonic 308 load
- Thread starter ifsta4
- Start date
Brother....I'm being wasted here! Maybe a little background here will help, all week long folks have been saying that those conversions to sako extractors are unsafe, now subsonic loads are unsafe. Here we sit, I've fired thousands of subsonic loads out of i don't know how many guns, a couple of them with the sako conversions, Ive run out of diff. powders to try subsonic loads with, but they say we are doomed!!
H4831: We are not making any headway! A few gun magazine articles about how these LIGHT loads had the potential of "blowing up a gun" has served to put us old geezers out to pasture. Apparently, this practice of willingly firing light loads is on the same plane as smoking in the baby's room or racing a car without a helmet. I shall forever and a day remain silent about what and where I shoot, so as to not stir up any new comparisons.....
Given your choice of barrel length and twist rate, I would be inclined to believe you're going to experience a great deal of challenge in this endeavour.
I wouldn't waste my time with any bullet over 130-150 gr. due to instability. 150 gr. 30-30 Win. type bullets would be a good choice to start with. If it were me, it would be a cast bullet only affair as the likeihood of a stuck bullet in your situation is going to be high and I would definitely make sure the load was supersonic before even considering backing down the powder charge.
I'm so glad I read this thread. I've been shooting subsonic (under 1000 fps actually) loads for years now in several chamberings from 7.62X39 to 577 Snider, and I guess I should be dead by now. Much of what I read here is good advice, but the safety parts about recent "discoveries" are probably lost on me - I'm the kind of guy who foolishly does not check headspace before each shot, and I've used loads not found in any manual.
Many people have been shooting subsonic (what we used to be permitted to call "plinking" or "mild", or even "Cat Sneeze" loads) for many years, in fact many handgun loads (e.g. 32 S&W, 38 Colt, even 38 Special) are nothing but. We now have a few people who have established themselves as experts, and they have contributed, but "safety issues" (and rumours of the same) have put the lid on many people, with no, (or dubious) reports of injury to equipment and shooter.
My subsonic loads are all using cast bullets, typically medium weight for the cartridge, and using fast to very fast pistol powders (Trail Boss, Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye and the like). In developing a load, I ensure that every shot left the barrel and tend to settle on 800 fps or faster loads with low SD - the real slow stuff tends to have a very high SD, and is not accurate.
Many people have been shooting subsonic (what we used to be permitted to call "plinking" or "mild", or even "Cat Sneeze" loads) for many years, in fact many handgun loads (e.g. 32 S&W, 38 Colt, even 38 Special) are nothing but. We now have a few people who have established themselves as experts, and they have contributed, but "safety issues" (and rumours of the same) have put the lid on many people, with no, (or dubious) reports of injury to equipment and shooter.
My subsonic loads are all using cast bullets, typically medium weight for the cartridge, and using fast to very fast pistol powders (Trail Boss, Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye and the like). In developing a load, I ensure that every shot left the barrel and tend to settle on 800 fps or faster loads with low SD - the real slow stuff tends to have a very high SD, and is not accurate.
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
Some folks consider it safe to install a Sako extractor on a 700 Remington while other do not. I used to think they were a better idea than Remington's extractor, then after an interesting explanation from Guntech, indicated that the Sako conversion is dangerous on the Remington action, I changed my mind. Guntech's concerns, if I got it right, are twofold; first because the steel ring that supports the cartridge head is cut the strength and safety of the action is compromised and secondly because the Remington action has no bar running along the length of the bolt body. This bar prevents the extractor from blowing off Sako bolt actions in the cases where a cartridge case fails and gas is released back through the action.
Later I read an article in Precision Shooting Magazine where Mike Walker, the inventor of the 700 series for Remington, states he himself doesn't like the factory extractor and installed the Sako version on all of his personal rifles. More recently, when Remington brought out their .338 Lapua chambered 700s, it was purportedly with a Sako style extractor, (I haven't seen one) if so that should just about end the controversy. That said, I have a M-7 that has a Sako extractor, although I admit having a little nagging doubt knowing that the Remington's "ring of steel" has been compromised with the installation, and I'm sure not to use marginal brass.
Last edited:
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
This is interesting and is the first time I've heard of a "detonation" occurring in anything but a bottle necked case with small charges of slow burning powder. Bullseye probably comes closest to meeting the criteria for this type of incident to occur. But do we know for sure that it was not simply a case of an overcharge of very fast powder; the effect on the revolver would be exactly as described. Had a high order detonation occurred, I would look for damage beyond the cylinder and top strap such as a bent or torn away base pin, torn away recoil shield, and some bending of the frame. I once used a small internal charge of high explosive to destroy a Dan Wesson .44 that had been through a house fire to ensure it would not be rebuilt by some unwary sole and the results were way beyond what would be expected from a double or even a triple charge of Bullseye.
Apparently, I am a ghost, since I must have died years ago when committing this heinous sin!! You are currently channeling my spirit.
Many years ago, at a local gun club I belonged to, it was once the preferred Saturday afternoon activity to see how far you could get a bullet to protrude out of your barrel WITHOUT falling out (tons of plugged barrels, yet not one damaged rifle). I cannot remember the data used and I have moved several times since and experienced a basement flood that took away a lot of components, equipment (my beloved pacific powder measure and my first rangefinder were among the casualties ), and, unfortunately, a great deal of data stored in the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet. So, I can't give comparative loadings except one. I remember this one specifically since I was trying for a particular hunting load to fill an extremely specific situation. I loaded 5gns Unique behind a 220gn Sierra ProHunter in my SKS. It gave me a round traveling just under 1100fps. Carried almost 600ft/lbs of energy and counted for two through and throughs on deer at 25-35yds.
#### Lee advises never reducing loads beyond half of the minimum listed in your manual. In Modern Reloading, he gives a formula for calculating you charge weight based on your loading manual info and desired velocity. I have safely used this formula when reducing loads to start each of my children on hunting rifles. They started shooting a really cut down .303 I got for $25 using 150gn hornadys at 1600FPS. No flinch developed and all took their first deer with that at 50-100yds.
Unfortunately, OP, I do not have the 1gn delta factor for IMR Trail Boss, so I cannot give you an appropriate start charge. You could do as I did in my infancy, when I wanted that SKS round. I called Sierra bullets and talked to Paul and he started me with the data and gave me max limits to restrict my experimenting.
Many years ago, at a local gun club I belonged to, it was once the preferred Saturday afternoon activity to see how far you could get a bullet to protrude out of your barrel WITHOUT falling out (tons of plugged barrels, yet not one damaged rifle). I cannot remember the data used and I have moved several times since and experienced a basement flood that took away a lot of components, equipment (my beloved pacific powder measure and my first rangefinder were among the casualties ), and, unfortunately, a great deal of data stored in the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet. So, I can't give comparative loadings except one. I remember this one specifically since I was trying for a particular hunting load to fill an extremely specific situation. I loaded 5gns Unique behind a 220gn Sierra ProHunter in my SKS. It gave me a round traveling just under 1100fps. Carried almost 600ft/lbs of energy and counted for two through and throughs on deer at 25-35yds.
#### Lee advises never reducing loads beyond half of the minimum listed in your manual. In Modern Reloading, he gives a formula for calculating you charge weight based on your loading manual info and desired velocity. I have safely used this formula when reducing loads to start each of my children on hunting rifles. They started shooting a really cut down .303 I got for $25 using 150gn hornadys at 1600FPS. No flinch developed and all took their first deer with that at 50-100yds.
Unfortunately, OP, I do not have the 1gn delta factor for IMR Trail Boss, so I cannot give you an appropriate start charge. You could do as I did in my infancy, when I wanted that SKS round. I called Sierra bullets and talked to Paul and he started me with the data and gave me max limits to restrict my experimenting.
Last edited:
kjohn, H4831, these practices MUST stop!! everyone knows that if you run with scissors, you WILL FALL. guaranteed!! If you allow your children to ride without seatbelts, you will immediately roll your car and they will be thrown under it! Common sense ISN'T common anymore!! Because it isn't, we must rely on others, those much smarter than us, to guide us out of our foolish ways.
He!!, with one exception, all my reduced hunting loads were with IMR 4064, 3031, or H335. Plinking or playing loads were with Bullseye and unique. Somehow, I still have all fingers, eyes, rifles. the only thing missing is what we were shooting at. Despite my "total disregard to safe loading practices", I am still here. Apparently God does favour fools.
He!!, with one exception, all my reduced hunting loads were with IMR 4064, 3031, or H335. Plinking or playing loads were with Bullseye and unique. Somehow, I still have all fingers, eyes, rifles. the only thing missing is what we were shooting at. Despite my "total disregard to safe loading practices", I am still here. Apparently God does favour fools.
I am glad I asked the question, ther is a ton of knowledge here and I appreciate all the input. I am not surprised by the wide range of opinions, as with most things there are people at either end of the spectrum. I have always been the type to jump off the bridge not because my friend did but because it looked like fun, but I have found as I get older, having things blow up in my face would ruin the day since we take so much longer to heal now. I will keep looking and take all of the advice here and try to make something work. I will keep you all posted as well, maybe a good idea for a permanent thread for folks to post all the different loads that work in differrent situations, I know I would use the data.....
H4831: We are not making any headway! A few gun magazine articles about how these LIGHT loads had the potential of "blowing up a gun" has served to put us old geezers out to pasture. Apparently, this practice of willingly firing light loads is on the same plane as smoking in the baby's room or racing a car without a helmet. I shall forever and a day remain silent about what and where I shoot, so as to not stir up any new comparisons.....
Kjohn, I hereby pledge to join you in being the sillent shooter and reloader, plus this posting may be my last on the reloading threads.
In the past I have answered many requests for information by the person having sent me a PM. I hope this continues, as I will gladly share any information I may have, if it helps someone. Also, I have sent PMs to people on here who know more about the subject than I do, asking them to share some of their expertise with me. I shall continue to do this.
I have certainly enjoyed sharing experiences and information with the many like minded people on here. It's been a pleasure.
As a few parting thoughts, I must state that I do not believe that a light load of powder ever blew up any revolver. Smokeless gunpowder does not explode. If it could be made to explode by the simple expedient of loading some cartridge lighter than some loading book says it should be loaded, then the whole world would not allow smokeless gunpowder to be shipped just as flammable in the dangerous goods catagory and not as an explosive.
Boomer has told us what a gun looks like after a very small amount of real explosive is used to destroy it.
Here is a copy of what is in the Speer, # 9, reloading manual:
Bruce Hodgdon, founder of the Hodgdon powder company, heard these rumours of guns blowing up with light loads of slow powder and here are the results of his testing done to try and prove if it really happens.
And here are theresults of his pressure testing. Note that in every case, less powder produced less pressure. The ratio of this reduction also remained quite similar, right down to the super extreme low amount.
My question is, "Are you using cast bullets?" If so there is a wealth of information on the Cast Boolit Forum regarding light loads with this cartridge.
When I ws loading my M 14 with cast boolits I had decent success with IMR 4227, and Reloader 15. None were subsonic though.
FYI i have loaded .30-30 with 7.5 gr of Unique without fillers for a light gallery load.
Detonation has never been able to be achieved by powder manufacturers so I wouldn't be to concerned about it. Anyone who suggest 3 gr of powder will blow up a gun is talking through his hat. 3 Grains may get you a stuck bullet in the barrel but 3 grains to blow up a gun....when pigs fly.
Take Care
Bob
Pathfinder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Northeast Ontario
What?? You can't do that!! Who will I so amiably disagree with then? I need a competent opponent...
However, that is precisely the reason why my post count is so low. I monitor the threads and pick and choose when I will answer. Most people won't listen and many threads are simply not worth the time. Many people simply believe what they see because it is on the internet. They don't seem to realize that anybody can make a video, write an article, etc. Learn to sort fact from fiction and apply a little common sense. Do your research. Hope to see you around anyway. You may get a PM or two from me later on when I start to cast.
I sure hope you don't. We need your knowledge and (uncommon) common sense.
The "It's Dangerous" crowd will always be around, and while they have not saved a single life, I'm sure they have contributed to turning many people away from reloading.
I know that's true, because a friend of a guy I know heard it from a gunsmith who saw it on the Internet.
You may have inspected two revolvers that had blown up but it sure wasn't from to light of loads unless a bullet got stuck in the barrel/forcingcone . More likely the cause was double charges of a fast pistol powder. Powder doesn't explode it burns and a very light charge of pistol powder only generates so much gas and pressure when it burns. FYI My 38 S&W Webley took 2 grains of Bullseye under 150 gr bullet. Very light loading in a relatively weak action. How much lower would I have to go to blow the thing up??
Take Care
Bob
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
I don't have a 165gr subsonic load for 308 win, but I have used Trail Boss is a few calibers to either make subsonic loads, or just light loads for a number of reasons.
What I've got for .308 win and trail boss is...
#7 Seating die set to: COL *2.80
Light Varmint Load (1725 fps -measured- Rem 742, very quiet, action does not cycle)
Primer: Winchester (hard primers), or CCI #200
Powder: Trail Boss 15gr (no listed max, case is full)
Bullet: Sierra 110gr HP
Brass: W.W Super X
What I've got for .308 win and trail boss is...
#7 Seating die set to: COL *2.80
Light Varmint Load (1725 fps -measured- Rem 742, very quiet, action does not cycle)
Primer: Winchester (hard primers), or CCI #200
Powder: Trail Boss 15gr (no listed max, case is full)
Bullet: Sierra 110gr HP
Brass: W.W Super X
Northman999
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Yukon
Nooo...keep posting. Please.
I didn't read all six pages, so sorry if all this was already covered, but the flash over and "DEATH AND DESTRUCTION WARNINGS" in the first few pages told me I needed to post.
Low velocity, plinking loads, cast or jacketed, Trail Boss is great. Max case capacity is 15 and a bit grains in a 308 and you CANNOT blow anything up with this. I talked to the Hogdon fellow that helped develop Trail Boss. His advice, way to establish load for any unpublished rounds, fill to neck, weigh. Min load about 60% of that weight, max laod, full to base of neck. You can go below 60%, just be sure bullet is moving fast enough to clear the barrel.
I have shot TB in dozens of cartridges. For the 308 my favorite load is a 165-200 grain cast or jacketed bullet, 7.6 grains of TB, 1150 FPS. I have loaded all the way down to 4.5 grains and it worked fine, 165 grain bullet was doing 880 fps. You can load all the way to 15 grains and all you get is a faster moving bullet. All the way to 15 grains, very quiet loads almost no recoil.
If you want a bunch of other low velocity or plinking loads, Hogdon has a "Youth Load section". http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf Speer and Sierra manuals publish lots of tested, safe plinking loads, as does the Lyman Cast Bullet loading book.
Low velocity, plinking loads, cast or jacketed, Trail Boss is great. Max case capacity is 15 and a bit grains in a 308 and you CANNOT blow anything up with this. I talked to the Hogdon fellow that helped develop Trail Boss. His advice, way to establish load for any unpublished rounds, fill to neck, weigh. Min load about 60% of that weight, max laod, full to base of neck. You can go below 60%, just be sure bullet is moving fast enough to clear the barrel.
I have shot TB in dozens of cartridges. For the 308 my favorite load is a 165-200 grain cast or jacketed bullet, 7.6 grains of TB, 1150 FPS. I have loaded all the way down to 4.5 grains and it worked fine, 165 grain bullet was doing 880 fps. You can load all the way to 15 grains and all you get is a faster moving bullet. All the way to 15 grains, very quiet loads almost no recoil.
If you want a bunch of other low velocity or plinking loads, Hogdon has a "Youth Load section". http://www.hodgdon.com/PDF/Youth%20Loads.pdf Speer and Sierra manuals publish lots of tested, safe plinking loads, as does the Lyman Cast Bullet loading book.
