Suddenly getting a lot of run-out on my .223 reloads

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Components: Unfired Hornady brass, 69gn Sierra MatchKings.

Not every round is out of alignment, but probably about 1/3rd of the 40 I loaded the other night are off by a fair bit. What made me check things the other night was seeing the misalignment on a couple of rounds just by eyeballing it.

I'm using the Lee Seating Die that comes with the 3 die deluxe kit - could it be as simple as the seating die requiring a cleaning?

Disclaimer 1: I don't have a baseline for previous loading sessions to compare with, as I've not noticed this occurring previously.

Disclaimer 2: I'm not using one of the dedicated tools (Neco, Hornady, etc.) to determine the amount of run-out - I've put together a simple jig with 4 round-head screws to act as bearings, and a 5th one at the back for the base to rest against as the case rotates, and then simply view the amount of 'wiggle' at the tip of the bullet as I rotate the round with my fingers over the bearing-screws. I currently have no way of quantifying it more accurately than "no wiggle", "bit o'wiggle", and "tons o'wiggle"...

While I'm waiting for feedback, I think I'm going to go and test some of my older rounds that I'd reloaded a few months back and see if this is something that's developed lately, or has been there for a long time.

In the meantime, any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!
 
There are a couple of things that might be causing your problem. The usual culprit is a loose neck sizing ball. Another culprit is a dirty or damaged shell head holder or even a loose sh holder. Loose sh holders are seldom an issue though. The last but most prevalent cause is the bullet guide at the top of your seating die. If it's dirty or worn, the bullet can be held at a slight angle while it's guiding the bullet into the case neck. Maybe the stem that holds it and sets the depth is loose or bent???

These are some to the things to look for.

One other thing that can and does happen but not often with the use of CNC machines to make up the components in the dies is an off true thread.

Are you loading any other rifle cartridges on your press???? If they are all off true, the press itself may have crooked threads.

One other thing, are you trimming the new brass and cleaning up the inside burr before loading it???
 
bearhunter said:
There are a couple of things that might be causing your problem. The usual culprit is a loose neck sizing ball. Another culprit is a dirty or damaged shell head holder or even a loose sh holder. Loose sh holders are seldom an issue though. The last but most prevalent cause is the bullet guide at the top of your seating die. If it's dirty or worn, the bullet can be held at a slight angle while it's guiding the bullet into the case neck. Maybe the stem that holds it and sets the depth is loose or bent???

These are some to the things to look for.

One other thing that can and does happen but not often with the use of CNC machines to make up the components in the dies is an off true thread.

Are you loading any other rifle cartridges on your press???? If they are all off true, the press itself may have crooked threads.

One other thing, are you trimming the new brass and cleaning up the inside burr before loading it???
Click to expand...

I am not sure that the OP re-sized his new brass, so, although I agree that a loose, or mis-aligned neck expander would be the first thing I would check for run-out, I am not sure this is the problem.

I would also agree that, though it would be extremely rare, the dies or press could have off true threads, but that would cause almost all the rounds to be off true which is not the case here.


OP, check the following...
Shell holder for looseness (as stated) but also for dirt. If you did not clean it with degreaser when you got it, it will collect dirt, crud, minute metal filings or, if you over-lube the cases, same result.


Try this, Take any empty, un-primed cases and check the neck run-out first. If they prove true within an acceptable tolerance, then seat a bullet. Lower the ram. With a sharpie, mark a vertical line on the case. Remove the dummy round, check for run-out (I know, this only happened to 1/3 of your original loadings, but it could happen). If you have similar run-out, put the round back in the press, but make sure you rotate it 180 degrees (sharpie mark facing other side of press) and raise the ram. This should produce a round with very little run-out.

Now, you can dis-assemble your die. Check your bullet guide. Make sure it is concentric. It could be as simple as a slight deformity (and I mean slight) that lined up with a slight deformity in the bullets, and a slight deformity in the case necks, causing excessive run-out.

Since I don't trust new brass, my own process has me neck sizing new brass, twice. Once, lower the ram, turn case 180 degrees, run it up again. Trim, de-burr, uniform primer pocket, de-burr flash hole, prime, charge, seat the bullet, turn it 180 degrees, and run it back into the seating die. This lessens the possibility of excessive run-out. This is my level of OCD. Separate brass by brand, don't weigh it. I Don't weigh bullets. I Don't turn necks. I Check run-out much the same as the OP, by eye, and most are very slight.
 
Last edited:
bearhunter said:
There are a couple of things that might be causing your problem. The usual culprit is a loose neck sizing ball. Another culprit is a dirty or damaged shell head holder or even a loose sh holder. Loose sh holders are seldom an issue though. The last but most prevalent cause is the bullet guide at the top of your seating die. If it's dirty or worn, the bullet can be held at a slight angle while it's guiding the bullet into the case neck. Maybe the stem that holds it and sets the depth is loose or bent???

These are some to the things to look for.

One other thing that can and does happen but not often with the use of CNC machines to make up the components in the dies is an off true thread.

Are you loading any other rifle cartridges on your press???? If they are all off true, the press itself may have crooked threads.

One other thing, are you trimming the new brass and cleaning up the inside burr before loading it???
Click to expand...

Hi Bearhunter - thanks for your quick response!

I removed and looked at the bullet guide inside the seating die - it looked pretty clean inside, and it was definitely straight - I rammed a tissue inside it, and it didn't come out with much crud on it. While I had the guide out of the die, I test-fit an SMK inside of it - it's not a perfect fit, as the bullet can wiggle a bit, but it's pretty close. I may send an SMK to Lee and see if they can grind me a custom guide - it looks like they're doing custom work again.

I also looked at some loads I had made up a couple of months back, and they were all pretty much fine with minimal runout showing, so this looks like a recent development (which, I think, also rules out wonky threads on the die or the press). The older rounds weren't Hornady brass - they were multi-fired Federal.

I'm starting to wonder if I didn't chamfer the new Hornady brass before I charged them with powder and projectiles - I may have skipped that step thinking that they were new and wouldn't need it. I'll try loading up some more of the unfired Hornady brass after making sure they're trimmed and chamfered this time. If that helps on the next rounds, I may pull the bullets on the really bad ones and re-seat them again.

Would there be any problem with a brass shaving or two falling into the Varget - i.e. should I empty the cartridge of powder before chamfering and then re-fill it? Just wondering if I can save a step or two per bullet.

Again, thanks for your response!
 
legi0n said:
your "runout measuring tool" might not be accurate
Click to expand...

I understand your concern here, but I'm pretty sure that the jig is good enough for making qualitative analyses of the issue for the time being.

The bearings themselves are fixed in place, so as long as the cartridge doesn't 'ride up' the bearings while rotating, the movement of the projectile tip should provide a useful indication of the round's "true-ness". I use a bit of down and backwards pressure with my finger while I'm rotating it to minimize any bullet-tip wiggle not related to run-out.

Thus far, the measurements seem to be repeatable (i.e. if I retest a round that wobbled the first time, it will show wobble on the re-test as well; ditto for non-wobblers), so I'm fairly confident that my McGyver'ed gauge works adequately for my purposes.
 
rookie wildcat said:
I am not sure that the OP re-sized his new brass, so, although I agree that a loose, or mis-aligned neck expander would be the first thing I would check for run-out, I am not sure this is the problem.

I would also agree that, though it would be extremely rare, the dies or press could have off true threads, but that would cause almost all the rounds to be off true which is not the case here.


OP, check the following...
Shell holder for looseness (as stated) but also for dirt. If you did not clean it with degreaser when you got it, it will collect dirt, crud, minute metal filings or, if you over-lube the cases, same result.


Try this, Take any empty, un-primed cases and check the neck run-out first. If they prove true within an acceptable tolerance, then seat a bullet. Lower the ram. With a sharpie, mark a vertical line on the case. Remove the dummy round, check for run-out (I know, this only happened to 1/3 of your original loadings, but it could happen). If you have similar run-out, put the round back in the press, but make sure you rotate it 180 degrees (sharpie mark facing other side of press) and raise the ram. This should produce a round with very little run-out.

Now, you can dis-assemble your die. Check your bullet guide. Make sure it is concentric. It could be as simple as a slight deformity (and I mean slight) that lined up with a slight deformity in the bullets, and a slight deformity in the case necks, causing excessive run-out.

Since I don't trust new brass, my own process has me neck sizing new brass, twice. Once, lower the ram, turn case 180 degrees, run it up again. Trim, de-burr, uniform primer pocket, de-burr flash hole, prime, charge, seat the bullet, turn it 180 degrees, and run it back into the seating die. This lessens the possibility of excessive run-out. This is my level of OCD. Separate brass by brand, don't weigh it. I Don't weigh bullets. I Don't turn necks. I Check run-out much the same as the OP, by eye, and most are very slight.
Click to expand...

Hi Rookie Wildcat - thanks for the feedback.

re: re-size: I didn't re-size it - I thought I'd fire-form it to the chamber, then trim, neck-size and repeat as required. Is it recommended to full-length or neck-size new brass before firing? Trimming is an obvious choice, but I haven't seen any clear direction about sizing new brass.

re: shell-holder: I cleaned it very thoroughly tonight; it definitely had a bunch of crap in there. However, I ran out of time to make some trial loads tonight, so will have to wait for tomorrow to see if the cleaning helped. Will report what I find.

I'll try the empty case test tomorrow as well, and will report findings here - stay tuned! :cool:
 
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