Suggest a first shotgun while I wait for another to ...

Suther said:
Both brownings you've mentioned would be fine guns, buy whichever fits best.
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Thanks.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what works and what won't. I'm not very versed on these and trying to find and match specs is sometimes tough.

The chokes for example. Some guns I've come across have them fixed, so that means they cannot be switched out for a different shot pattern, correct? Or the 2-3/4" chambers, that would most likely be only good for clay, right? If I wanted to hunt with these I would need to at least have a 3" chamber, right?

While I'm here, regarding steel shot. A lot of literature says it shouldn't be used. So what should be if I want to shoot clay?

Trying to learn, thank you for the responses.
 
paz said:
Thanks.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what works and what won't. I'm not very versed on these and trying to find and match specs is sometimes tough.

The chokes for example. Some guns I've come across have them fixed, so that means they cannot be switched out for a different shot pattern, correct? Or the 2-3/4" chambers, that would most likely be only good for clay, right? If I wanted to hunt with these I would need to at least have a 3" chamber, right?

While I'm here, regarding steel shot. A lot of literature says it shouldn't be used. So what should be if I want to shoot clay?

Trying to learn, thank you for the responses.
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Maybe you are making some incorrect assumptions, or maybe I am from old days, or maybe stuff has really changed and I just simply have not "kept up". My first store bought new shotgun was a 12 gauge Browning Pump Shotgun - I bought it circa 1970's - our son (now age 45) has had it for past 20 odd years. 3" chamber, fixed Modified choke. From back in the days when we were allowed to use lead shot on waterfowl. I got many prairie chickens (sharp tail grouse), various ducks and geese, and one ruffed grouse. I only used 3" shells for goose loads - #2 lead - all the rest were always 2 3/4" shells. There is a 20 gauge BPS now in the cabinet here, and a 28 gauge BPS that is in the mail to me.

At the time, in small town Saskatchewan - when law changed to require "non-toxic" shot for migratory birds, about only choice then and there was to buy steel shot loads - may as well have thrown handfuls of gravel at the birds - it was really crappy stuff, compared to lead shot. I understand it has been improved, but I have not been out for ducks or geese since the law changed - so I have never used steel shot of any size or chambering. I recently came into some bismuth shot - healthy price - but I understand that stuff is both "non-toxic" and "nearly like lead shot". For informal blasting at clay pigeons, I have been buying flats of # 7 1/2 or # 8 lead shot for the 12 gauge - I would expect that still works fine - I see many ranges specify that maximum shot size must be # 7 1/2 shot - can not use larger than that.
 
paz said:
Thanks.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what works and what won't. I'm not very versed on these and trying to find and match specs is sometimes tough.

The chokes for example. Some guns I've come across have them fixed, so that means they cannot be switched out for a different shot pattern, correct? Or the 2-3/4" chambers, that would most likely be only good for clay, right? If I wanted to hunt with these I would need to at least have a 3" chamber, right?

While I'm here, regarding steel shot. A lot of literature says it shouldn't be used. So what should be if I want to shoot clay?

Trying to learn, thank you for the responses.
Click to expand...

The actual competitors here will laugh, but my trap gun is a $200 Wingmaster. An older one so 2 3/4 chamber and I'll bring two barrels with me. A long (I think 28"?) full choke and a shorter (24" maybe 26"?) modified barrel. I like to practice with the two barrels as it keeps me practiced with the wait or delay when shooting full choke...it's a rhythm thing. With the short mod barrel, I have to locate the bird, lead and fire quickly...no time to f-around. However, with the full choke, I have to wait, I have to track, lead and anticipate where the bird (clay) is going for a considerably longer period of time (seconds feel like minutes). Practicing like this I believe will simulate regulated double barrel fowling. First trigger (mod) is for when you're on the bird, second trigger (full) is for when you either miss or wound the bird, your further follow-up shot.
I also use a weight on the mag tube to assist my swing and replicate a loaded gun. Anyhow, some guys will raise an accusatory eyebrow when they see my beat up old shotgun on the rack, but I can keep up with most of them and out shoot many with their $5000.00 over/ unders. Do whatever works for you guy, never mind the rest.

As far has hunting. 2 3/4 is fine if you know what it will do at what distance. This requires a lot of patterning experimentation. Find the ammo that works best with the choke you're choosing to use and you'll soon develop a mental image of the spread pattern at the distance your target presents itself...that will tell you whether taking the shot makes sense or not. Don't field a gun you don't intimately know. Same advice for 3", or what I'd imagine the insane 3 1/2" shells (I'm still looking for some that are affordable) would do. They'd give you more reach is all.

There used to be a lot of hullabaloo about shooting slugs through a fully choked barrel, and shooting steel shot through a full choke...I do it. It may wear the barrel faster, but I haven't noticed any difference at all.

Best way to learn is to do it. Range time. Flats upon flats of shells. Get to know what your gun will do, it'll tell you what works and what doesn't. Listen to it.
 
paz said:
Thanks.

I guess I'm trying to figure out what works and what won't. I'm not very versed on these and trying to find and match specs is sometimes tough.

The chokes for example. Some guns I've come across have them fixed, so that means they cannot be switched out for a different shot pattern, correct? Or the 2-3/4" chambers, that would most likely be only good for clay, right? If I wanted to hunt with these I would need to at least have a 3" chamber, right?

While I'm here, regarding steel shot. A lot of literature says it shouldn't be used. So what should be if I want to shoot clay?

Trying to learn, thank you for the responses.
Click to expand...

Fixed chokes would limit what things you can do - skeet and trap generally call for different chokes for example. That said, a combo of fixed mod and IC is pretty darn versatile, fixed chokes can be opened up if it's too tight for your liking, and if one really wants they could get the barrels threaded for chokes.

3" is not at all a requirement for hunting. I tend to use 3" for ducks, but I've killed em with 2 3/4 and that's basically all I use for anything that doesn't require nontoxic shot.

Clays shooting is done with lead shot. So is a lot of hunting. Waterfowl requires nontoxic shot, most everything else can still be killed with lead.


If you're not sure about gun fit, find a dealer near you that deals in shotguns. And I don't mean just sells some shotguns, some stores have shotguns as one of their focuses. Find them, and they'll help you figure out what fits.
 
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I got a mossberg 500 combo with the 28" barrel and slug barrel. You can catch it at Cabela's on sale for $500
 
Well - The Milano was an Italian gun built for Savage about a decade ago. Savage dropped them after a few years, and I doubt there is any support from them regarding service or spares. The Liege was a short lived attempt by Browning to produce an entry level gun, and was quickly superceded by the Citori. Albeit a decent gun, it is 50 years old, and has fixed chokes. Realistically, its worth half of the asking price.
You might consider a Churchill. I consider them the best of the Turkish guns, and can be had for a reasonable price (~$1200). I own several B guns, and the Churchill Orcap I have compares very nicely to guns that cost 3 times as much. With 3 inch chambers, and choke tubes, it can be used for all hunting and sporting disciplines.
 
cosmic said:
Well - The Milano was an Italian gun built for Savage about a decade ago. Savage dropped them after a few years, and I doubt there is any support from them regarding service or spares. The Liege was a short lived attempt by Browning to produce an entry level gun, and was quickly superceded by the Citori. Albeit a decent gun, it is 50 years old, and has fixed chokes. Realistically, its worth half of the asking price.
You might consider a Churchill. I consider them the best of the Turkish guns, and can be had for a reasonable price (~$1200). I own several B guns, and the Churchill Orcap I have compares very nicely to guns that cost 3 times as much. With 3 inch chambers, and choke tubes, it can be used for all hunting and sporting disciplines.
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Good suggestion on the Churchill. I was actually in conversation with someone recently who had recommend I look at Turkish guns but he did not give a model to look at.

I'd still give the Milano a try if the opportunity presented itself but yea, the Liege is out and I'd look at a Citori but only with interchangeable chokes.
 
paz said:
Good suggestion on the Churchill. I was actually in conversation with someone recently who had recommend I look at Turkish guns but he did not give a model to look at.

I'd still give the Milano a try if the opportunity presented itself but yea, the Liege is out and I'd look at a Citori but only with interchangeable chokes.
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I bought a Churchill 812 Oxycap as my first O/U after months of research. I have to say I agree with cosmic that they are the top shelf of the Turkish O/U offerings. Although it’s hard to get reviews on them here, they seem to be quite popular in Britain/ Europe and get very good reviews from those who own them. The build quality seems to be excellent, especially at the price point and I’ve been very impressed with it, although that being said I only have about 500 rounds thru it at this point. They come with 5 chokes, a nice hard case and I’ve seen a few of the 206 models for $1000 or less on GP. After comparing mine with the Stevens 555 and the Canuck offerings I must say the Churchill is a much nicer firearm without a doubt. Definitely worth a look if an O/U is what you want
 
Ok, I was able to locate a local to me Citori, made in Japan with adjustable chokes. I was also able to locate a Milano, not local and 50 bucks more, it comes with an assortment of chokes.

The Citori is a little simpler looking while the Milano ha some silver and engraving to it. Both are 12G and 28" barrels. How do I make my choice? What should I look for or ask the seller?
 
Well - When buying a used O/U, one needs to consider that the locking mechanism can wear over time and usage. The usual test is to look at the position of the locking lever - it should be right of center. (ie counterclockwise from the 6 oclock position). There are other tests to determine "tight on face"
All things being equal, the Citori is a better bet. The MSRP for the Milano way back when was ~1100$, while the Citori was close to twice that. Finally, my Milano had a neutral cast, whereas the Citori should have a dedicated cast. That is an important consideration for me.
 
cosmic said:
Well - When buying a used O/U, one needs to consider that the locking mechanism can wear over time and usage. The usual test is to look at the position of the locking lever - it should be right of center. (ie counterclockwise from the 6 oclock position). There are other tests to determine "tight on face"
All things being equal, the Citori is a better bet. The MSRP for the Milano way back when was ~1100$, while the Citori was close to twice that. Finally, my Milano had a neutral cast, whereas the Citori should have a dedicated cast. That is an important consideration for me.
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I’m leaning this way as well. I’m not sure why the Milano is occupying all this space in my head.

What is a dedicated cast versus a neutral cast?
 
This arrived last week and it feels pretty great, going shooting this coming weekend for the first time.

1986 I believe, MIJapan, chambered for 3" and 28" barrels, everything is tight. I love it.

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I bought it on ####### but I believe it was also listed here. It came with 5 chokes and I need to figure that out, any tips on where to read up on the Invector system?
 
cosmic said:
Well - When buying a used O/U, one needs to consider that the locking mechanism can wear over time and usage. The usual test is to look at the position of the locking lever - it should be right of center. (ie counterclockwise from the 6 oclock position). There are other tests to determine "tight on face"
All things being equal, the Citori is a better bet. The MSRP for the Milano way back when was ~1100$, while the Citori was close to twice that. Finally, my Milano had a neutral cast, whereas the Citori should have a dedicated cast. That is an important consideration for me.
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Citori models often have a palm swell, but the cast is still neutral.
 
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