Suggestions for a "big and slow" caliber?

44 mag is a blast. I have a Ruger Deerfield Carbine that I picked up new. This little gem can really sling lead. More of a range toy although I have downed 1 Deer with it. Bang-Bound-Bang-Flop. :p

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Suther said:
I hear that most 338 bullets are built for higher velocities(340 Weatherby, 338 rum ect velocities), and thus the 338wm is only effective out to 200-300yds before expansion becomes an issue. Obviously I have no first hand experience, but that's what Douglas has said in the past and I have no reason to believe he doesn't know wtf he is talking about...
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Broad sweeping generalizations are always dangerous, especially with respect to expanding bullets. There are many designs out there! That being said, I have never had a nosler partition fail when impacting between 1800-2800fps. I have see other bullets fail to expand, or blow apart at those velocities. Some hunters I know carry two separate loads with them, and will single feed a designated long range load for 500yd+. Typically these are thinner jacketed bullets, and offer better expansion at low velocity. The trade off is that when used at close range (high velocity) they tend to blow up! Bullet technology has come a long way , but we are still Far from a silver bullet that performs as well at 4000fps as it does at 1000fps. There are a lot of good bullets available today, but terminal performance is not only a result of shot placement. Even if we are talking about BIG and SLOW bullets, bullet performance plays a critical part.

A quality bullet used within its designed velocity envelope is going to perform well. (I think Nosler may be stretching their velocity envelope a bit given the many reports of LRAB's performing poorly and failing to expand). Beyond 300yd, it becomes important to understand trajectory and retained energy/velocity, in addition to the environmental factors at play. It's also very important to test YOUR LOAD in YOUR RIFLE to establish these values in reality.

I have heard about poor bullet performance in .338's, but my experience is contrary - I have seen a .338 turn a whitetail inside out at over 400m. Berger VLD. Ugly.

The truth is, bullet performance matters a lot more than the size of the hole in the barrel.

Bullet performance can be velocity dependant. This is the main advantage of big bores - it's not necessary to use expanding bullets, thus FMJ's can be used to good effect and offer THE MOST consistent bullet performance.
 
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MiG25 said:
Personally the only 358 Win that interests me would be a Savage 99, otherwise with typical bullet weights the 8x57 (Tradeex has lots) does everything the 358 does.

Also, a Win 92 clone in 45 Colt can duplicate the old 45-75.

Consider a 44 Mag lever action, it has a big hole in the barrel and brass and other components are cheaper, think 1000 shots/lb of Red Dot or 300/lb of H110.
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The one thing a 8mm doesn't do is spit pills that are 35cal or bigger.

44mag has the same issue as 444marlin, low sectional density and terrible long range ballistics. While the 358win is not a long range cartridge either, it is better suited to my goals. If I wanted something around 2000ft/lbs energy I'd go with 35rem.

I would love a savage 99! But I'll have to wait and see what's actually available when the cash is flowing.
 
Suther... stick to your guns (pun intended) and get yourself a 35 cal.... I have owned rifles in 350 rm, 35 Whelen and .358 win with the latter being my preference..... They exactly suit what you are looking for and there is just something awesome about shooting one that is hard to put your finger on.....

Never mind the quotations, theory and magically embellished numbers..
 
Superbrad said:
Suther... stick to your guns (pun intended) and get yourself a 35 cal.... I have owned rifles in 350 rm, 35 Whelen and .358 win with the latter being my preference..... They exactly suit what you are looking for and there is just something awesome about shooting one that is hard to put your finger on.....

Never mind the quotations, theory and magically embellished numbers..
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Yeah I'm really leaning towards either a 358cal or a 366cal, they seem to be the right combo of bullet weight and recoil, without having the terrible long range ballistics that the 40+cal choices with reasonable recoil have (eg 444 marlin) and I'm not ready to step up to a big case 40+ cal like a 416 Rem Mag quite yet.

emerson said:
Nechako Outdoors has a used Marlin lever action in 375 Win with a shortish barrel. $875. I want it.
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I have no love for low sectional density bullets, so a 200 or 220gr 375cal just doesn't turn my crank. Besides, a 358win pushes the same weights faster, and the 358 pills will have better BCs and SDs to boot. I'm thinking 358win is about the minimum I want power wise, while the 9.3x62 is towards the upper limit.

I wouldn't say no to a good deal on a 375 h&h or Ruger though, I could download them a bit and work up to full power loads over time, but thats a bit more gun then I am after so its not my intention to buy one (wasn't my intention to buy dies for calibers I don't own either, but that happened at the WSS closing sale, I'm a sucker for a good deal lol)
 
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superbrad said:
suther... Stick to your guns (pun intended) and get yourself a 35 cal.... I have owned rifles in 350 rm, 35 whelen and .358 win with the latter being my preference..... They exactly suit what you are looking for and there is just something awesome about shooting one that is hard to put your finger on.....

Never mind the quotations, theory and magically embellished numbers..
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^^^^yes^^^^
 
Suther said:
Yeah I'm really leaning towards either a 358cal or a 366cal...

... I'm thinking 358win is about the minimum I want power wise, while the 9.3x62 is towards the upper limit.
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That is a narrow window, but in your case, I think .358 gets it just right. The Hornady 200 RN, Speer 220 HC and Sierra 225 SBT have all been extremely accurate out of all of my .358's... I load them to 2500+, but a standard and accurate load would put you right around 2400 fps, which is right where you want to be.

You could pick up a Ruger M77R Hawkeye All-weather fairly inexpensively with a little searching... it would be a nice rig for your purposes.
 
emerson said:
Nechako Outdoors has a used Marlin lever action in 375 Win with a shortish barrel. $875. I want it.
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I've only had my .375Win since last spring, and I only had it out for the first day of deer hunting where I knew the shots were going to be close-ish. My favorite gun to carry by far! Something about those light, fast-handling lever guns. Ammo can be a pain in the arse to find, casting is the way to go if you want to shoot a lot. I recently acquired a Lyman 264gr FN gas-checked mold, with the goal being powder coating the boolits and driving them over 1900fps. I'd start casting right now, incredibly bored at the moment, but it's just too dang cold out to do anything but post on GunNutz.

Suther, if the shots are within 200y and you want a light-weight, easy-recoiling, sort-of-big-and-slow rifle that isn't that slow (200gr approaching 2400fps), and you don't mind reloading for a cartridge that's really hard to source components for, then my vote goes to the .375win!

If however you want a rifle that covers most bases for all animals, and you're willing to sacrifice some weight for some recoil or vice versa, then my vote goes to the .338-06! Make brass from cheap .30-06 or .35whelan, could probably even make some from your .270win brass if you were in a bind. Lots of bullet choices, 210gr-225gr is the sweet spot for this caliber. 250gr bullets are still moving along at around 2400+fps. My personal load is a 210gr Partition going ~2700fps, and over the last three years has accounted for three deer with three shots, all I'd say had optimal results. Now back to the trade-off, you can't fight physics, and there is going to be a bit of recoil if the rifle is a lightweight. Mine weighs in at 9lb6oz empty without a sling. The recoil is quite tame, if it was a 7lb rifle, I can imagine it'd be a different story.

I did go the 9.3x57 Husky route from TradeEx as well, and have shot but do not own a 45/70 and 35rem. I stand by my above statement.
 
As a preface I am far from an expert, and something of a .338 wm fanboy


I hear that most 338 bullets are built for higher velocities(340 Weatherby, 338 rum ect velocities), and thus the 338wm is only effective out to 200-300yds before expansion becomes an issue.
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Why does this matter if you are not shooting past 200 yards? Also kind of contradicts your mention of the .338/06 in your original post. Plenty of bullets designed for .338 wm velocities. Even the Woodleigh 300 grain RN is designed to expand at WM velocities for use on feral water buffalos, it is even capable of use in the .338/06, as per my emails with Woodleigh. I have settled on 250 grain RN's for mine...

Are you planning on using the gun for elk/moose hunting? What ranges do you normally encounter these animals at when you shoot them with your .270?


You seem to put a lot of stock in sectional density. I would postulate that in the modern era bullet construction can help to overcome whatever difficulties you anticipate (are you having issues with penetration in game with your current chamberings? I have never used a .270 but never had this issue with well constructed bullets in the .243). Not to mention velocity, which also surely plays a role in the equation.
 
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The .338 WM is a great cartridge, but the way I read this thread, it is clearly not what the OP is looking for.
 
Slamfire said:
Greater versatility with a 338 WM. Has the flat trajectory of a 300 magnum and the wallop of a 35. It's a fearsome long range Elk stomper or a thick timber Moose or Bear stomper depending on how it's loaded. Wide selection of bullets from 180gr at 3300 fps to 300gr at 2450 fps.

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/338-winchester-magnum/
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The 338wm does not have the trajectory of the 300wm, and sure, it can hit like a .35 under a couple of hundred yards like Suther is seeking, but it is not doing it without “heavy” recoil..... hardly suitable for the task at hand....
 
hoytcanon said:
The .338 WM is a great cartridge, but the way I read this thread, it is clearly not what the OP is looking for.
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I would agree with both counts, we are just waaay down the rabbit hole now.

Mind you I experimented with 300 grainers, would love to connect with a moose or elk with them some day.

Brad in what sense does a .338 have heavy recoil in comparison to the .375 h&h which everyone was suggesting a few pages back? I find the recoil impulse of a light .338 similar to the heavy .375 h&h's I've shot.
 
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conor_90 said:
I would agree with both counts, we are just waaay down the rabbit hole now.

Mind you I experimented with 300 grainers, would love to connect with a moose or elk with them some day.

Brad in what sense does a .338 have heavy recoil in comparison to the .375 h&h which everyone was suggesting a few pages back? I find the recoil impulse of a light .338 similar to the heavy .375 h&h's I've shot.
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Maybe I didn’t express myself as eloquently as I should have bud...

To be perfectly honest, the rifles I owned in .338 and .375 h&h were both quite heavy..... and that sure helps to mitigate recoil.....

I am not recoil averse and, like I said earlier, I don’t consider this a macho thing as I have much more respect for someone like suther that realizes he is not ready for bigger recoil than I do for someone that feels he needs to handle something outside of his capability....

To put my opinion into perspective, the 338 was a ruger guide gun (pussycat with the obnoxious brake installed, not so much without it), and the .375 true king was an RSM, which was a heavier rifle as well..... I also had a .300wm that I recently let go as it wasn’t the platform I was looking for..... it had a boyd’s stock on it, which inherently makes a rifle heavy.....

My comments in regards to recoil were more directed at the op and his desire for not too much recoil and his 270 experience etc.... coupled with his desire for his definition of “big”...... and 200 yards.... like you said, we went down the rabbit hole...
 
300 WM 190gr LR AB vs. 338 WM 265gr LR AB: trajectories are comparable out to 400 yards. Beyond 400 yards a ballistic reticle is your friend for both.

At 400 yards the 338 WM retains 3180 ft-lbs vs. 2670 ft-lbs, or 20% more energy than the 300 WM, makes a 20% bigger hole and has 30% more momentum. :eek:

Woodleigh makes a 300gr RN bullet that could be loaded at 2000 fps or lower. Plus 338 cast bullet molds are available.

If recoil is an issue a muzzle brake does wonders.

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/300-winchester-magnum/

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