Suggestions for a new shooter

Buy what you like & what you want :)

If it's a Mosin - great, if you are looking at bolt actions & dont wanna pony up for a K98, look into a nice VZ24 or 24/47 nice rifles! & the 8mm ammo is not too bad price-wise. [I also have an M48... eh, meh, the 24/47 is SOOOO much nicer.]

My first rifle was about 6 months ago, an SVT-40, never had one tiny bit of trouble with it, dang it's fun to shoot too.

As for the surplus 7.62x54r .... I hate the stuff, life is too short to be cleaning that crap out of my guns & if you do grab an SVT it will kick the gasses back in your face - I've choked on that more than once.
If you go for the Mosin [or SVT - same ammo], spend the extra on some PRVI ammo & build up a little stockpile of brass to reload.

have fun!!
 
BCRider said:
The surplus ammo is pleantiful just now and cheap to buy. But it's terrible for accuracy. You'll soon be wanting to look into reloading so you can see what your rifle, whatever you end up with, can REALLY do.

And for most rifle rounds and even handgun ammo reloading is where it's at. You can produce the big majority of rifle rounds for half or less the cost of factory. And for anything in a handgun which starts with a ".4" you KNOW you can reload it for a small fraction of the cost for factory.

Not to mention that you can reload rifle calibers with nice "cheap match" or good hunting grade bullets for about 40 to 50 cents a round. The cheapest milsurp corrosive ammo seems to be around 30 to 35 cents a round depending on time and supplier.
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Reloading is something that interests me for sure, is there a book I can read that would explain the ins and outs of reloading? I don't really know anyone that reloads so the only way I'm going to be able to is to read a book. I want to learn in the future, as I live in the country and the nearest gun shop is like an hour away, it may come in handy to be able to reload my own.
 
I really wish we could have Thompson's in Canada

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Reloading is something that interests me for sure, is there a book I can read that would explain the ins and outs of reloading? I don't really know anyone that reloads so the only way I'm going to be able to is to read a book. I want to learn in the future, as I live in the country and the nearest gun shop is like an hour away, it may come in handy to be able to reload my own.
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I'm brand spankin new to reloading, all I can say is if you need advice & help, this is the place to get it!

Any of the reloading companies [RCBS, Lee, Hornady] will have literature, instructional videos & reloading data readily available. A good deal of it is also available as free videos on youtube!

As far as getting started, you can do for under $300 [maybe under $200?] you don' ~need~ all the gadgets to get started.
What I can't stress enough though is a quality accurate scale in grains, not a re-purposed kitchen scale. If you screw up a conversion and are 5 grains over in a charge, you could have a very [!] dangerous situation on your hands.
 
If you are "sold" on a Moisin-Nagant, be sure to buy at least a crate of ammo for it. The accuracy of the stuff is often p*ss-poor but it it also a source of valuable components.

If you want to see what the ammo was like when it was made (and usually that was pretty decent), you pull the bullets from military stuff and dump it into freshly-primed casings, then load on the military bullet. What you have done is get rid of a dodgy primer and substituted a fresh one: far better accuracy.

Lee-Enfield action is MUCH slicker than the MN and you can get started with a Bubba'd rifle for around $150 and restore it later. And here is something neat: it uses the SAME primers, SAME powder and SAME slugs as the MN! Only things different are the brass cases, the dies you use to reload them and the actual weight of powder.... and even those are pretty close.

NO reason not to have BOTH!

Then you can compare the inferior Russian bolt (modified from a French one that was no good) to the fast and slick and positive Canadian bolt, compare the inferior Belgian-designed magazine of the Russian rifle with the high-capacity lightweight magazine of a REAL rifle and ......

Gee: I re-read that. PERHAPS I MIGHT be just a LITTLE bit biased!

Seriously now, the Russian Moisin-Nagant rifle is the only bolt rifle ever made which MIGHT be as tough as a Lee-Enfield. You can get darned decent accuracy out of them both and either one WILL murder one of those innocent little Bambis which stands on top of your Big Round Bale and takes a dump on it, costing you $300 worth of feed.

Yeah...... better get one of each.

BTW, I THIRD the recommendation of Trade-Ex. I first met Anthony close to 35 years ago. He was a decent guy THEN and, now that he has his own company, he is even better to deal with. Absolute honesty, helpfulness and everything they have is UNDER-described as to condition. Get one of their Swiss Army cleaning kits. Fifteen bucks and you will NOT find a better one.

Most important of all: enjoy!

And welcome to the club!
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you pull the bullets from military stuff and dump it into freshly-primed casings, then load on the military bullet. What you have done is get rid of a dodgy primer and substituted a fresh one: far better accuracy.
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Hold the phone there, it's the primer that is guilty for all the crud and gunk from the milsurp stuff? Also all the milsurp I have seen has been steel case, I've been told you can't reload it - or is it you 'shouldn't' - never asked why, so now I am.

"why can't you reload steel cases?"


NO reason not to have BOTH!
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Not a single reason I can think of.
It might be fun to check back with us in a couple months and find out HOW MANY guns you have tinman :)
 
Steel cases CAN be reloaded, although it is hard on the reloading dies, notably on the sizing die. If you are just neck-sizing, no reason not to do it.

YES, the PRIMER is the source of all that crud that ruins your barrel. Corrosive primers use potassium chlorate (KClO3) as the main ingredient. When struck a smart blow, it explodes, releasing the 3 oxygen atoms bonded to the molecule and a lot of heat. This ignites the powder in the cartridge, which creates a HEAP of pressure and literally BLOWS the bullet down the bore. A firearm is a chemically-powered rock-throwing device. But when the Potassium Chlorate degrades and does this, it leaves behind a stub molecule of Potassium ChlorIDE (KCl), a very nasty form of SALT which lines the bore of your rifle and gets into the pores of the metal. This is why you clean your bore with HOT WATER after shooting this old military ammo: the stuff dissolves in water, same as table salt. It is also why your steel cases RUST: wash them in warm water and they will last forever.

By switching-out for more modern primers which use things such as lead azide or lead tri-nitro-resorcinate, you avoid the SALT.

Another reason not to reload the military cases is that so many of them use BERDAN primers, which are very nearly impossible to get in this country. Only ones available at all are RWS and they cost the Earth and half the Moon. So you get a couple boxes of BOXER-primed ammo (which includes Prvi Partizan and Sellier & Bellot these days as well as Norma and Lapua) which take out standrd Large Rifle primers, and you reload those casings.

No reason not to re-use the Russian POWDER: it is exactly the same as ours. Matter of fact, duPont, the owners of IMR at that time, built half a dozen rifle powder mills in Russia in the 1930s; Hercules built their mills for pistol powder, which is why the handload for the TT-33 is 5 grains of Bullseye: original factory rounds use 5 grains of Russian-made Bullseye!

Hope this helps.
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Tinman204 said:
I'm a new shooter and I'm finding that I'm interested vintage rifles more then the new fancy stuff. I was wondering if some of you more experienced gun owners could recommend a good first surplus rifle to me. Quite afew people I know own an Sks so after shooting them I'm of course interested in one of those. It would be a lot more fun and more my style if i had something different then my buddies. Before I make my decision, I figured I'd look at some other options available on the market. Any suggestions, pictures etc would be great!

Thanks, Steve
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My first milsurp was the Swiss K31, It almost spoiled everything that came after it...The K31 with GP11 ammo (available from trade ex?) or a Swedish M96 with any 6.5x55 ammo would probably be your best bet in terms of accuracy and quality....oh and you cant go wrong with a MN, real fun to shoot. Goodluck, milsurps are addictive.

DeltaOps
F.
 
You all are probable going to roast me for this but I personal would not recommend a Mosin Nagant as a first rifle for a new shooter. Yes they are cheap to buy and ammo is inexpensive and easy to find...for now but so wasn't .303 British and Lee-Enfields a few years ago. Mosin Nagants are uncomfortable to shoot at least for me, have a horrendous trigger, a bolt that that is well lts just say something less than smooth and at least to my eye are somewhat unattractive.
That's not to say that I would not own one. Just not as a first rifle.
 
Rumpelhardt said:
You all are probable going to roast me for this but I personal would not recommend a Mosin Nagant as a first rifle for a new shooter. Yes they are cheap to buy and ammo is inexpensive and easy to find...for now but so wasn't .303 British and Lee-Enfields a few years ago. Mosin Nagants are uncomfortable to shoot at least for me, have a horrendous trigger, a bolt that that is well lts just say something less than smooth and at least to my eye are somewhat unattractive.
That's not to say that I would not own one. Just not as a first rifle.
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I have to add that I'm very mechanically inclined, if it's broken I can usually fix it. I'm a big guy do I tend to like heavier and bigger rifles. Guns are a very personal thing one size or shape doesn't fit all for sure. I appreciate people's honest opinions!


Steve
 
smellie said:
Steel cases CAN be reloaded, although it is hard on the reloading dies, notably on the sizing die. If you are just neck-sizing, no reason not to do it.

YES, the PRIMER is the source of all that crud that ruins your barrel. Corrosive primers use potassium chlorate (KClO3) as the main ingredient. When struck a smart blow, it explodes, releasing the 3 oxygen atoms bonded to the molecule and a lot of heat. This ignites the powder in the cartridge, which creates a HEAP of pressure and literally BLOWS the bullet down the bore. A firearm is a chemically-powered rock-throwing device. But when the Potassium Chlorate degrades and does this, it leaves behind a stub molecule of Potassium ChlorIDE (KCl), a very nasty form of SALT which lines the bore of your rifle and gets into the pores of the metal. This is why you clean your bore with HOT WATER after shooting this old military ammo: the stuff dissolves in water, same as table salt. It is also why your steel cases RUST: wash them in warm water and they will last forever.

By switching-out for more modern primers which use things such as lead azide or lead tri-nitro-resorcinate, you avoid the SALT.

Another reason not to reload the military cases is that so many of them use BERDAN primers, which are very nearly impossible to get in this country. Only ones available at all are RWS and they cost the Earth and half the Moon. So you get a couple boxes of BOXER-primed ammo (which includes Prvi Partizan and Sellier & Bellot these days as well as Norma and Lapua) which take out standrd Large Rifle primers, and you reload those casings.

No reason not to re-use the Russian POWDER: it is exactly the same as ours. Matter of fact, duPont, the owners of IMR at that time, built half a dozen rifle powder mills in Russia in the 1930s; Hercules built their mills for pistol powder, which is why the handload for the TT-33 is 5 grains of Bullseye: original factory rounds use 5 grains of Russian-made Bullseye!

Hope this helps.
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Absolutely fascinating & very helpful. As for safely de-capping & disposing of the surplus primers.... ? any suggestions, cautionary tales?
 
Rumpelhardt said:
You all are probable going to roast me for this but I personal would not recommend a Mosin Nagant as a first rifle for a new shooter. Yes they are cheap to buy and ammo is inexpensive and easy to find...for now but so wasn't .303 British and Lee-Enfields a few years ago. Mosin Nagants are uncomfortable to shoot at least for me, have a horrendous trigger, a bolt that that is well lts just say something less than smooth and at least to my eye are somewhat unattractive.
That's not to say that I would not own one. Just not as a first rifle.
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Each to his own, IMO Mosins ARE butt ugly, but that's just part of the charm to me. also, if you dig around there are some threads on 'improving' the trigger, I think it involves polishing the sear? Similar things can be done with the bolt & if i's still too ugly for you, there are aftermarket stocks, though you haven't got much left that you can call Mosin after that :(

Personally, I'd like to get a hold of one of the snipers and go all Vasily Zaytsev on it, whitewashed & wrapped in burlap. I dare say I'd make a new friend or two on the range that day!
 
sean69 said:
Each to his own, IMO Mosins ARE butt ugly, but that's just part of the charm to me. also, if you dig around there are some threads on 'improving' the trigger, I think it involves polishing the sear? Similar things can be done with the bolt & if i's still too ugly for you, there are aftermarket stocks, though you haven't got much left that you can call Mosin after that :(

Personally, I'd like to get a hold of one of the snipers and go all Vasily Zaytsev on it, whitewashed & wrapped in burlap. I dare say I'd make a new friend or two on the range that day!
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I agree with the burlap!!! That's kinda what draws me the old military rifles, there all go and not for show!
 
I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I wasn't saying that owning a Mosin was a bad thing. Far from it.
I was trying to say that a Mosin Nagant is not a good beginners rifle. A new shooter starting out with a Mosin could very easily develop some bad shooting habits because of the Mosin's less than optimal shooting characteristics.
 
Rumpelhardt said:
I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.
I wasn't saying that owning a Mosin was a bad thing. Far from it.
I was trying to say that a Mosin Nagant is not a good beginners rifle. A new shooter starting out with a Mosin could very easily develop some bad shooting habits because of the Mosin's less than optimal shooting characteristics.
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Ah I got ya! Well to be honest most of my shooting will be plinking with a .22 but I was looking for a surplus rifle to occasionally bring out and have some fun with. I've put quite a few rounds through my buddie's Sks and I really like it but I find that I'm more interested in owning a bolt action rifle. A Mosin sounds good but I'm open to anything that I can get ammo for at a reasonable price.
 
Well, if you want anything left in your wallet at all, you had better not start loading your own shells.

Sure, handloaded ammunition can be tailored to YOUR rifle an you CAN get wonderful accuracy out of the stuff. I handload more than 20 different old-time military calibres and I can honestly say that my own loads are more accurate than anything the factories turn out. Factory .303 ammo, for example, in the right rifle, MIGHT turn out at 1.5 MOA. 2 MOA is more common. 3MOA is more likely. I EXPECT better than that and I GET better than that...... and I do it at just over half the cost of factory ammo.

And I like to play with some of the REAL old-timers, too, and that's where things get expensive. Factory ammo for my Sniders is $8 a shot and it's 45 years old at best. I can load my own for about 20 cents a shot.

DO NOT start loading your own ammunition!!!!

You will find very quickly that you are saving SO much money on ammo that you will just HAVE to get another old military rifle...... and that one also will save you money on ITS ammo, so you have to get another.......

Pretty soon, you're outside, living out in the shed with the tractor because your whole HOUSE is full of rifles.

Terrible thing to have happen.

But then, some folks like it........
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smellie said:
Well, if you want anything left in your wallet at all, you had better not start loading your own shells.

Sure, handloaded ammunition can be tailored to YOUR rifle an you CAN get wonderful accuracy out of the stuff. I handload more than 20 different old-time military calibres and I can honestly say that my own loads are more accurate than anything the factories turn out. Factory .303 ammo, for example, in the right rifle, MIGHT turn out at 1.5 MOA. 2 MOA is more common. 3MOA is more likely. I EXPECT better than that and I GET better than that...... and I do it at just over half the cost of factory ammo.

And I like to play with some of the REAL old-timers, too, and that's where things get expensive. Factory ammo for my Sniders is $8 a shot and it's 45 years old at best. I can load my own for about 20 cents a shot.

DO NOT start loading your own ammunition!!!!

You will find very quickly that you are saving SO much money on ammo that you will just HAVE to get another old military rifle...... and that one also will save you money on ITS ammo, so you have to get another.......

Pretty soon, you're outside, living out in the shed with the tractor because your whole HOUSE is full of rifles.

Terrible thing to have happen.

But then, some folks like it........
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Too funny!!! My gal already says I spend too much time in the shop with my tractor!!! The funny thing is that she really enjoys shooting to so we may both be locked in the shop all winter reloading shells. Oh well I guess there's worse things in life!

Steve
 
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