Suggestions for an-all-around rifle....
- Thread starter do15
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Rem338win, I realize that a lot of people believe the 30-06 to be "THE" all around cartridge, I happen to disagree and have found the 300 magnums to be far superior, especially when someone (like the OP did) starts talking 1000 mtrs. Getting beyond 400 the '06 loses ground fast and this is where the 300s really shine and this is what I said before. As to the big bears, well you brought them up, however were I a one gun hunter after coastal grizzlies I would feel much better with my 300 in hand than a 30-06 with the 1000 ft/lb advantage of the 300. Still not ideal for the task, but better suited than the '06.
You have to admit rem338win, there is nothing an '06 can do that a 300 won't do better. As far as recoil, the '06 is no pleasure for a new CF shooter and I've found the 300s to be no more obnoxious (with the exception of the 300 RUM and 30-378). I, in fact have always been distraught at the recoil of the '06 compared to the ballistics.
In the days before reliable glass and iron sights ruled the hunting fields the old '06 reigned supreme in the all around arena, and I agree with open sight limitations there is little need for much more than the '06 and it makes for a near perfect all around NA cartridge. With the quality of glass now available and too many people believing that they can and should shoot at game a kilometer away, the 300s hold a significant advantage over the '06. This is the basis of my opinion. I may have been a bit demeaning saying the '06 was ONLY good for deer, it's good for coyotes and badgers and maybe the odd small caribou cow too!! LOL
You have to admit rem338win, there is nothing an '06 can do that a 300 won't do better. As far as recoil, the '06 is no pleasure for a new CF shooter and I've found the 300s to be no more obnoxious (with the exception of the 300 RUM and 30-378). I, in fact have always been distraught at the recoil of the '06 compared to the ballistics.
In the days before reliable glass and iron sights ruled the hunting fields the old '06 reigned supreme in the all around arena, and I agree with open sight limitations there is little need for much more than the '06 and it makes for a near perfect all around NA cartridge. With the quality of glass now available and too many people believing that they can and should shoot at game a kilometer away, the 300s hold a significant advantage over the '06. This is the basis of my opinion. I may have been a bit demeaning saying the '06 was ONLY good for deer, it's good for coyotes and badgers and maybe the odd small caribou cow too!! LOL
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I would suggest (having owned and shot both enough) that a 30-06 and the 300 Wins in the same platforms aren't all that equal. I believe the difference is the muzzle flip that causes flinches and is not reasonable for a "newbie".
In the 180gr or less category I don't believe there is any significant game performance out to even 500yds, especially with the quality of glass, BDC reticles and turrets. The high BC bullets benefit the 30-06 as much as the .300's. Where the distinct advantage starts for the .300's is the 200gr bullet crowd, notably the high BC bullets of which the new Nosler AB 210gr is the only real LR high BC hunting bullet and it is smoking hot off the press new.
iSnipe tells me that at 500yds a 300 Mag has 300ft/lbs of energy more than the '06 at 500yds (@1900fps vs 2120fps)with a 180 TTSX. That's a 22 Hornet at 175yds; Rosie O'Donell makes that much energy plopping down in a chair after a hard day. Either round is making two holes in a 600lb animal in my experience and that is the show stopper.
In the 180gr or less category I don't believe there is any significant game performance out to even 500yds, especially with the quality of glass, BDC reticles and turrets. The high BC bullets benefit the 30-06 as much as the .300's. Where the distinct advantage starts for the .300's is the 200gr bullet crowd, notably the high BC bullets of which the new Nosler AB 210gr is the only real LR high BC hunting bullet and it is smoking hot off the press new.
iSnipe tells me that at 500yds a 300 Mag has 300ft/lbs of energy more than the '06 at 500yds (@1900fps vs 2120fps)with a 180 TTSX. That's a 22 Hornet at 175yds; Rosie O'Donell makes that much energy plopping down in a chair after a hard day. Either round is making two holes in a 600lb animal in my experience and that is the show stopper.
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This man is wise beyond his years. Either that or he is really fricken old! 270, 30-06, 308, 7mm-08 + ten or so others are all great all around cartriges. It's impossible to find a rifle that will let you shoot an elk 400 yards away and also be good for shooting coyotes and keeping pelts, but with some bullet selection and reloading you can get pretty darn close. Without reloading I think you are better off with a 308 or 30-06 where there is a large selection of ammo choices. First and foremost if you want to buy just one gun make it a good one that fits you.
My 26" barrelled .300 Wins clock 3150 fps with 180s. My 30-06s will do 2700 with the same bullets or at least some of them do. Take that out to 500 and the energy difference is something on the order of 50% is favor of the .300. Or to put it another way the .300 does at 500 what the '06 does at 250. To me, differences of 50% more and equal at double the distance are getting just a wee bit hard to ignore. For 7 cents worth of powder I'll take it.
****7000 posts, what do I win?
****7000 posts, what do I win?
Will, you know the old saying...."There's no replacement for displacement"....it's like Good, Better, Best.
The 308 is good, the -06 is better, and the 300 win mag is best....the OP did say 1000 meters for deer so realistically that eliminates the good and better and only leaves the best!
If the recoil is a problem, put a brake on it.
The 308 is good, the -06 is better, and the 300 win mag is best....the OP did say 1000 meters for deer so realistically that eliminates the good and better and only leaves the best!
If the recoil is a problem, put a brake on it.
bearkilr
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Not to sound rude, but as a new hunter your last concern should be long range. Buy yourself a quality bolt action in 270 or 308 and a 3-9x40 scope and that'll cover you for ranges much farther than you should be shooting at pretty much any game in North America. I don't know your financial situation,etc, but seeing as you're a new hunter from Montreal, I would doubt Grizzly or Alaska Brown bear is on the menu anytime soon.
After a couple of decades of hunting various species and practicing, if you still feel inclined to do so, you can step up to something a little flatter shooting with more power. In order to actually kill what you're aiming at consistently at extreme ranges, caliber is also the least of your worries. I you can't hit something at 1000 yards with a 308, don't think for a minute you can just pick up a 338 Lapua with a Nightforce and start shooting deer in the eye.
I've shot many dozen various animals over the years and still don't really feel comfortable shooting at game over 400 yards, and I'm in no way embarrassed to say so. Most internet marksmen claiming to be Annie Oakley's can't shoot worth a sh+t, and even the ones who are accomplished long range target shooters fail miserably in a relatively uncontrolled situation like hunting.
Enjoy hunting, don't dwell too much on equipment. That'll come soon enough, your wife and wallet will let you know when!
Yeah, I have to agree with you on this guy expecting to shoot deer at a 1000 meters as being a little far fetched, but if one was to do it the 308 will have a lot less energy remaining at that distance than the 300 win mag. And theoretically, all things being equal, the 300 win mag will be more accurate at that range in a hunting scenerio for the simple fact that it has the velocity advantage.
I like Phil shoemaker's quote:
Sure, and then he walks around carrying a .458 everywhere he goes.
I think he has retired the .458 and for "big" now uses a .375 Ruger in a boat paddle stock. But, he posted a picture a while back of a huge brown bear he shot with the .30-06 launching either a 200 or 220gr Partition.
In my view a .300 Win Mag is too much of a good thing for most folks, especially new shooters.
I agree, but also think that is their problem not a short-comeing of the cartridge itself.
Maybe the saying should be "Anyone who doesn't think the .300 is the best thing going is unwitting admitting to a lack of ability, dedication and commitment to makeing it work, and compensates by projecting their deficiencies on others."
I think your right.
I shot a friends 300 Weatherby bolt rifle once...Once and never again, Hellacious recoil IMHO and making it worse is IIRC it was one of those ultralight contraptions.
But...
The Benelli Argo semi in 300 Win mag that I owned was a dream for me to shoot. And to me it felt like s mild .270, just like the ads said it does. Still overkill for our island critters.
In spite of loving single shots now I'm still kicking myself for selling that rifle...damn it!
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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The 168s go 3200fps in my 300wsm and 2950fps in my 30-06. Difference at 500 is 325 ft/lbs. 168gr ttsx in the 30-06 is all you need if you need deep penetration. 168 btip if you don't.
Shooting deer at 1000 with a hunting rifle and a 30-06 isn't going to happen. Makes you look foolish to put that into the same post asking others what gun to buy.
Shooting deer at 1000 with a hunting rifle and a 30-06 isn't going to happen. Makes you look foolish to put that into the same post asking others what gun to buy.
hometownhero
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Applefarmer
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Most missed the call. A newbie with no experience shooting. No one to help or mentor. He has to : A; learn. B. Get a grip on reality. C. Find out what he is capable of. Starting him off with a 6.5 x55, .270, 7mm-08 will bring him into shooting faster than starting him off with a .577 Tyrannosaurus Rex . Keeping the recoil down with a caliber capable of taking game, might actually encourage him. What the heck, even a 30-30 and make him learn how to stock the game.
.308, 30-06, 300 Win mag is great. But this is not a starting point with someone that has no Mentor. Cut the Recoil and let him learn. F'n Nuts, it sounds like a bunch of wanna-be's shooting and telling the kid what he needs.
Give him a chance to learn. It'll take time, a crap load of time before he grasps the basics. He has no idea how to walk in the woods never mind how to handle a firearm.
Ideally he will buy a .22 Cooey and shoot the heck out of it and figure out there is no magic in accuracy.
Time, patience and perseverance.
.308, 30-06, 300 Win mag is great. But this is not a starting point with someone that has no Mentor. Cut the Recoil and let him learn. F'n Nuts, it sounds like a bunch of wanna-be's shooting and telling the kid what he needs.
Give him a chance to learn. It'll take time, a crap load of time before he grasps the basics. He has no idea how to walk in the woods never mind how to handle a firearm.
Ideally he will buy a .22 Cooey and shoot the heck out of it and figure out there is no magic in accuracy.
Time, patience and perseverance.
