Surplus Mauser Ammo and Chamer Pressure

The_Red_Rabbit

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Hello CGN,

Today I went to fire my 1916 Gew 98 for the first time. The rifle is a matching example and the rifling is good. I did not check the headspace but it shot fine. However I noticed the primer round edge was flattened which suggest higher chamber pressure or excessive headspace. However, there was no volcano effect where the firing pin struck. The ammo used are attached in the photo.

Should I use a different brand of ammo? If so, which one? Or should I stop firing and get a gun smith to look at? Any recommandation for the Thunder Bay area?

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Thanks!
 
These round are romanian airfore surplus got the same and they are very hot load. Consider yourself lucky as i got repeated pierced primer in 2 of my 4 rifle in 8mm and all 4 rifle did not close on a no-go gauge
 
PPU in my experience is awesome. Brass has no issue after being shot in any of my rifle and it shoot directly on POA in my RC K98
 
Well..... it's not the ammo is HOT, it was just poorly rebuilt. Casings were not properly prepped and the primers are too soft. I've reloaded the powder and bullets in s&b casings with cci 200 primers and it shot great. Of course some will tell you that they have had no problems with this stuff as is. Not my experience, hard extraction, flattened primers, pierced primers, the works.

Ppu is quite mild, 2000 fps ish.
S&b is nice 2500 fps just like original German loading, but the casings are hit or miss as far as their reloadability.
Don't even bother with US manufactured hunting ammo in 8mm, overpriced and limp. I think the tornado stuff is supposed to be good, but I haven't tried it.
If you can find well priced surpluss, get it, but I can't justify spending over a dollar a round for some moldy 65 year old corrosive ammo.
Best bet is to reload. Comes to about a dollar a round, and you can tailor it to what ever you like. Haven't been able to find .323 projectiles for under 50 cents a round, unlike other calibers like .308.
 
Just an FYI GEW 98 barrels have a .318 bore, k98 varients were made with a .321 bore. Most ammo nowadays is amde to k98 spec and if fired through an early .318 barrel you will see pressure signs and it could result in a blown barrel.
 
Just an FYI GEW 98 barrels have a .318 bore, k98 varients were made with a .321 bore. Most ammo nowadays is amde to k98 spec and if fired through an early .318 barrel you will see pressure signs and it could result in a blown barrel.

I guess that's why it says newbie below your panhandle.
1898 Mauser rifles in 8mm Mauser have .323 bores, you must have confused it with the 1888 Mauser's .318 bore.
 
Just an FYI GEW 98 barrels have a .318 bore, k98 varients were made with a .321 bore. Most ammo nowadays is amde to k98 spec and if fired through an early .318 barrel you will see pressure signs and it could result in a blown barrel.

UMMMM NO. There is a slim possibility the OPs rifle has a .318 bore but it's not likely as most GEW 98 barrels were later replaced with "S" or standard bores whose groove diameters were .323 for the larger bullets adopted around 1904.

Some of the ammo loaded for the 8x57S was and still is loaded HOT. Norma fodder is right around 56,000 psi, which was considered maximum by most nations and delivered 2900 fps with 150gr bullets. That's very close to what the military loads were loaded to.

Some nations loaded up their ammo specifically for machine guns at substantially higher pressures. It's likely the surplus ammo the op used may have been this stuff.

It could also have been a reload, which is indicated by the silver colored primer. If those were loaded to maximum pressure for velocities on surplus brass, which seems to be the case, it's likely the loads were made up in the books on commercial brass which would have thinner side walls and less capacity. With some of the newer powders available case capacity isn't a problem any more.

I have a commercial sporter GEW 98 with a .318 bore that is original to the receiver, from the factory. The fellow I got it from put thousands of surplus rounds through that rifle without an issue. He wasn't even aware that the cartridges he was getting so cheap weren't correct for the rifle. Didn't hurt a thing. He ran the same surplus ammo through a Patter 17 that was sporterized without a hiccup. He liked that the cartridge "FIT BOTH RIFLES."

Lots of reasons for the primer in the pic to flow. Likely just a soft batch. I've seen large pistol primers seated that give similar results when fired.

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Thanks for the answers!

It has the S symbol so it should have a .323 barrel. As far as the ammo is concerned, it was bought from Tenda which was surplus with new primers. I will for sure give the PPU ammo a try when it gets here next week.
 
A word on PPU vs. S&B ammo.

The PPU ammo will shoot considerably lower than the S&B ammo. For example with PPU, at 100 yards, I would have to raise the sight on my K98 to about the 400 yard setting to zero it at 100 yards, whereas, with the rear sight set to 100m, the S&B ammo it shoots 6" high at 100 yards. I suspect my Mauser has been zeroed for 300 yards, but was never able to test that at 300 yards to find out.
 
You would think that firing an 8mm is in a m1917..30.06 would destroy the gun,amazing,shows how strong that action is.

Actually I've seen the after effects of this on several occasions in the scrap brass bucket. The usual is a 308Win, which also chambers easily in a 30-06 chamber. The extra jump from the shorter cartridge case to the leade works the same way as the old Weatherby FREEBORE. It allows pressures to drop a bit before the bullet enters the barrel but still allowed the powder to build up enough pressure to generate decent velocities.

The 8mm and 308 Win cases are usually blown forward so there is only a partial shoulder or a shoulder without a neck, perfectly formed to the chamber.

We're only talking about swaging 15 thousands of an inch. It takes a lot less pressure than the 56K generated by the 8x57 cartridge to do that when hand swaging bullet jackets. That may not be the case with steel core bullets but with regular lead core, open base cups for jackets the cores would just be swaged back out the base.

We recovered some 303Brit bullets out of the snow which were built similarly and fired down a 308 diameter bore. The bullets only showed the rifling marks and the lead cores actually extended from the base of the bullet.

Many people today just don't see open base, exposed lead core bullets any more. With today's excellent quality control/metallurgy, the exposed lead bases are no longer necessary to ensure that the jackets obdurate to match the bore dimensions. That's like why my lovely old sporter, which had the receiver softened to engrave withstood the extra pressures generated as well as the unintended freebore.

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Sporter 8mm Mausers stuck with the 318 bore after the military switched to 323.

The sporter had a long tapered throat so it could digest 323 bullets without problem.

The GEW88s were considered to be safe with the 323 diameter bullets as well. Very many of them were altered to accept the new cartridge. John, you've made me curious. I will check those throats/leades on both my sporter and GEW88 rifles to see if they have been so altered as well. Makes sense they would be.

I have some Gew88 rifles that have been stamped with an S as well as the cut out for the increased OAL of the spitzer bullets. I also have a few that I know have .318 bores. I haven't shot all of them so I should be able to see the difference between the chambers. The chambers are all shiny without any sign of frosting as are the bores.

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He is absolutely correct. 8x57 will FIT in a 30-06 chamber, but it will BLOW UP if fired.


No it won't. I've done it on several occasions to prove my point with other deniers. I have already described what the brass looks like after. I've seen the results a lot of times from different rifles and have yet to see a catastrophic failure of any sort, other than making the case very difficult to reload. (-:/ joke.

It's not something I recommend, especially with solid base bullets but the chances of it occurring in a blow up are alleviated by all of the feebore conditions that lower pressures.

I most certainly wouldn't advise such a demonstration with a semi auto such as a Garand or even a BAR or any other commercial semi auto.

Let me give you an example of a test done by Parker Ackley and his staff. I wasn't convinced so I duplicated it about 20 years later.

Mr Ackley took a Type 38 Arisaka chambered for the 6.5 Jap case and opened up the chamber with a 30-06 reamer.

Without any other alteration, they proceeded to shoot factory loaded 30-06 cartridges through it.

After several attempts to seize or blow up the Arisaka (maybe the strongest bolt action made to that time) they started using hand loads of progressively faster powder under 150 grain 308 diameter bullets.

They finally ended up with a compressed charge of 2400, which finally gave them the results they wanted. The thing is, the action held. The brass flowed all around the bolt head and into the locking lug recesses.

Because of the excellent venting and design the nasty little bits were directed in a safe manner, away from the shooter. The rifle was being held in a rest, similar to the Ransom but big enough for a rifle.

They had to remove the barrel to free the bolt. What they found, surprised them. The action was still serviceable, no lug set back and no stretch that could be measured.

This was done while evaluating which actions were the strongest of those being offered on the Surplus market at the time. Mr Ackley's shop in Utah was very much involved in building custom sporters on all of these actions.

In those days an Arisaka in very good condition but with ground mum could be had for $5. No one wanted them. Everyone was still stuck on the hype generated during WWII that the Japanese rifles were inferior and weak. Nothing could be further from the truth. They were in fact the strongest of all the bolt action surplus rifles.

A friend and I, just out of curiosity decided to duplicate the experiment to see if more than one rifle would give the same results.

We reamed the chamber out to 30-06 specs and after tying the rifle to a logging truck tire, shot the first round of factory loaded, 150 grain ammo. Bang went the rifle and other than a bit of extra lift pressure the bolt rotated and extracted teh cartridge case perfectly. A quick check of the bore showed it was clear.

We continued and then we started loading with 2400 powder. We did this in increments, until we got exactly the same results Mr Ackley achieved.

The receiver on this rifle was also still very serviceable. No lug set back to be seen, nothing we could detect with a magnetometer as far as cracks went and vibration didn't show any seeping cracks on the bolt or action. The stock was shattered. There was nothing in the bore other than some of the brass from the cartridge case which had flowed into the leade area.

I voted against it but my bud at the time wanted to use that action to build a 257 Roberts AI. He did it and to my knowledge, that rifle is still in use somewhere in the Unity Sask. area.



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A word on PPU vs. S&B ammo.

The PPU ammo will shoot considerably lower than the S&B ammo. For example with PPU, at 100 yards, I would have to raise the sight on my K98 to about the 400 yard setting to zero it at 100 yards, whereas, with the rear sight set to 100m, the S&B ammo it shoots 6" high at 100 yards. I suspect my Mauser has been zeroed for 300 yards, but was never able to test that at 300 yards to find out.

Made a bit of research in the past and from what i understand PPU make two kind of 8mm, one box is advertised as 8mm mauser and is loaded to the american brand standart (about 2100fps) and another kind sold as 7.92x57mm JS loaded at the european standard (about 2500fps). S&B are loaded at the european standart which explain why they shoot higher. Had the same thing as you happen with PPU in my portugese Mauser-Vergueiro, had to raise the sight to 400m to hit on PoA a 100m.But in my RC K98k the PPU 8mm mauser is dead on at 100m
 
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