Suspiscions confirmed.

[H4831]

Throughout the 1950s and a bit beyond, I had a very close association with the Prince George branch of the BC game department.
Prior to Jimmy Hatter coming in, a "Game Commissioner," was in charge of the game department. The province was divided into zones, closely related to the present game management regions. A game inspector was in each region, in charge of the department. The Prince George zone (region) started north of Quesnel, icluded the area west to Prince Rupert, east to the Alberta border and north to the yukon/NWT border.
Inspector Walter Gill, stationed in Prince George, was in charge of this area, more than half the province. I was once on a trip to Vancouver with him and visited the Game Commissioner with him, but I forget the Commissioners name.
Prior to my time, the game department was a branch of the BC Police. Then when the game department became a seperate entity, many of the BC Police went with the new game department. Walter Gill and two other wardens at Prince George came via the BC Police. And while the wardens of that time did not carry side arms, the ones who had been in the police, brought their revolvers with them and sometimes had them in their holster when on duty. As a point of interest, the game wardens at that time did not have uniforms and just wore every day, outdoor clothing.
Especially Walter Gill, had a very good relationship with the organized fish and game clubs. In the spring he would attend meetings of the clubs, seeking input on what sportsmen thought, for any changes to the game regulations.
It was Walter Gill I was riding with when he stopped and told me to get the hawk, that some writer here trashed me for! But hey, I was just telling it like it was. And sure I was proud of my shot! Walter was a hunter and he commented on it being a good shot.
During that time period I went on more hunting trips with game wardens than I did with any other hunting partners.

 

[critter928]

I find it funny when we blame predation on the numbers of any wildlife, and many say the problem is too many predators because no one is talking them out, or the restrictions on being able to do so.

For millions of years nature balanced itself out without man having to cull the predators so the herbivores could prosper.

Why is it now that it is so important for man to manage the predators to protect the herbivores?

Is it we don't want the competition as the ultimate predator?

Perhaps stop blaming bears and wolves on the moose population, and look at what we are doing to it. I think you will find the system is very self balancing without our intervention, and if there is an imbalance, we are more to blame than a few wolves or bears.

What did mother nature and the moose population do before man was here to keep the bear and wolf populations under control?

 

[Hawking]

But hey, I was just telling it like it was. And sure I was proud of my shot! Walter was a hunter and he commented on it being a good shot.

It might have been a good shot, it may have been crap luck, I can understand the pride in hitting where you aimed, however surely you must admit that in hindsight it was surely less than moral to have taking a part in almost eliminating several raptor species from Canada?

I acknowledge that at that time it was legal but it was never moral or ethical.

I have worked extensively with birds of prey. I have been involved in training, captive breeding, rehabilitation, and reintroduction. We came so close to loosing several species in Canada, we have spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying to stabilize the populations and yet there are still many who shoot on sight, despite the research and legal protection. Balance I can understand but shooting a bird of prey serves no purpose and that is very much senseless in my eyes. It is hardly something to be proud of in light of a more learned point of view based on modern science and understanding.

happy hunting.

 

[dthunter]

today while out hunting bears, we come accross a shot bear, that was skinned and left on the road! What kind of IDIOTS leave an animal in the middle of the road!?
With world class morons like this, we are sure to loose more ground on our hunting privilages!
Its soooo embarassing!

 

[Demonical]

You guys that do not understand the effect of predation, look at New Zealand. ZERO natural predators. There is no other country in the world I would say, that has stronger game herds. The only predator is man. It has created a big game hunters paradise.

The US western states are sure pissed off at their game depts for re-introducing the timber wolf into large areas. Those wolves are thriving, to the detriment of the elk herds, moose etc...

Look at what's happening with caribou herds in Newfoundland since coyotes have taken hold there.

But if all you hunt are the farming areas of Alberta, you'd know nothing about what the wolves and bears are doing to the ungulate populations in wilderness areas, which is all I hunt. I never hunt the farming country.

 

[Demonical]

today while out hunting bears, we come accross a shot bear, that was skinned and left on the road! What kind of IDIOTS leave an animal in the middle of the road!?
With world class morons like this, we are sure to loose more ground on our hunting privilages!
Its soooo embarassing!

Was it just the carcass? What area was this? Are we talking wilderness type area, like the bear was shot off the side of an oilfield road?

I'm not condoning that, but if it's the type area I'm guessing it is, that carcass wonlt be there for long. Other bears will 'dipose' of it and probably pretty quickly.

 

[tigrr]

Interesting. You find it offensive to hear someone shot a hawk. But on the other hand, you sending a falcon to tear up a pigeon, goose or duck in your opinion is ok. Let the innocent cast the first stone.

That is correct, immature female Bald. For the most part they all are or were actively hunted. The snowy....well we will call it more like daily walks, as we never managed to catch anything. We chase geese with the bald, dicky birds and pigeons with the falcons and of course anything that moved with the RT. Of all the falconry birds, from blackbirds to bunnies and large ducks.....pound for pound, the Rt is the most productive and fun. Cheep to keep, cheep to house and not nearly as demanding as far as training and time as the rest. In all fairness tho, our local land suits the hawks best. Having said that, if you ever have a chance don't pass up calling an eagle to the fist. It is a lifetime experience one should not miss out on.

 

[Gatehouse]

I find it funny when we blame predation on the numbers of any wildlife, and many say the problem is too many predators because no one is talking them out, or the restrictions on being able to do so.

For millions of years nature balanced itself out without man having to cull the predators so the herbivores could prosper.

Why is it now that it is so important for man to manage the predators to protect the herbivores?

Is it we don't want the competition as the ultimate predator?

Perhaps stop blaming bears and wolves on the moose population, and look at what we are doing to it. I think you will find the system is very self balancing without our intervention, and if there is an imbalance, we are more to blame than a few wolves or bears.

What did mother nature and the moose population do before man was here to keep the bear and wolf populations under control?

Sure, nature will balance itself out. But it does it with peaks and valleys.

Humans generally prefer a flatter line, and that is what is what we strive for in wildlife management.

Regulated human hunters will never, ever have the impact on moose population that a high predator population will have.

 

[ianmcdz]

It might have been a good shot, it may have been crap luck, I can understand the pride in hitting where you aimed, however surely you must admit that in hindsight it was surely less than moral to have taking a part in almost eliminating several raptor species from Canada?

I acknowledge that at that time it was legal but it was never moral or ethical.

I have worked extensively with birds of prey. I have been involved in training, captive breeding, rehabilitation, and reintroduction. We came so close to loosing several species in Canada, we have spent thousands and thousands of dollars trying to stabilize the populations and yet there are still many who shoot on sight, despite the research and legal protection. Balance I can understand but shooting a bird of prey serves no purpose and that is very much senseless in my eyes. It is hardly something to be proud of in light of a more learned point of view based on modern science and understanding.

happy hunting.

Morality depends on the time and the place. It's easy to look into the past and judge. You seem particularly biased. It helps to keep things in perspective to hear stories from the past. I would like to thank h4831 for sharing it

 

[Hawking]

Interesting. You find it offensive to hear someone shot a hawk. But on the other hand, you sending a falcon to tear up a pigeon, goose or duck in your opinion is ok. Let the innocent cast the first stone.

Indeed, my birds do hunt, yes they do kill. However they consume every thing they kill, can the same be said for the countless birds of prey pointlessly killed in the past?

Why shoot a raptor to near extinction? Balance sure, extermination.....not so much. I would be the first to quite hunting if i came down to low populations, in fact I often do.

 

[RRCo.]

Hawking was said to be the sport of kings, so was war.

"A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun" is all you will see in the eyes of raptor. They remind me of lizards in that respect. Still, I'm glad they're not extinct.

Around here the aboriginals have been known to blast eagles with .303s when the need for a few sacred feathers arises. I guess the feathers don't even need to be plucked, they just drift down to the ground.

 

[critter928]

Sure, nature will balance itself out. But it does it with peaks and valleys.

Humans generally prefer a flatter line, and that is what is what we strive for in wildlife management.

Regulated human hunters will never, ever have the impact on moose population that a high predator population will have.

I disagree.

Are you saying that moose populations are stronger since man came along and culled the predators and regulated hunting on the moose population?

If moose populations now are even one moose less than the trough of any of the high predator times before modern hunting, then your theory is wrong. And I don't think you will have one old timer or historical account to say that moose populations now are as strong as they were pre-regualted hunting in the 20th century. We would be the cause of that decline in numbers, not natural predators.

And prior to man, there was no keeping the predator population down and you cannot honestly be suggesting there are more predators now than before man, so if there is a decrease in moose numbers, it is more us than the bears and wolves.

 

[Hawking]

Morality depends on the time and the place. It's easy to look into the past and judge. You seem particularly biased.

How can it ever be considered moral to exterminate a species, regardless of the timeline? The generation who almost wiped out so many species due to "game management" is certainly accountable to the subsequent generations for there actions. Why was the importance only put on what we wanted to harvest instead of protecting the whole ecosystem?

Biased, not as much as you would appear to believe. I believe in balance, stewardship. I realize that in the past our laws centered around what we as a race wanted. We nearly wiped out so many important portions of the biodiversity in Canada for the sake of better game numbers. I would see shooting a individual of a plentiful raptor species to protect a species that was near extinction but not just because it competes with what I desire.

Yes I love working with birds of prey, yet I would not wipe out cottontails for the sake of hunting with my birds, neither would I shoot all the wolves because they compete with the birds for prey base.

 

[Demonical]

critter928 I'm curious to know what areas of AB you hunt? And also, if you don't mind, just how old are you? If that's too personal then I don't need to know that.

 

[critter928]

critter928 I'm curious to know what areas of AB you hunt? And also, if you don't mind, just how old are you? If that's too personal then I don't need to know that.

I haven't hunted in 20 years, and when I did it was in NE Saskatchewan.

As for my age, you can guess a good ballpark number based on the above answer.

 

[Hawking]

Morality depends on the time and the place. It's easy to look into the past and judge. You seem particularly biased. It helps to keep things in perspective to hear stories from the past. tI would like to thank h4831 for sharing i

I missed the last part of your post.....a addition after the fact maybe(edit)?

Anyhow I will agree that the perspective given is valuable but in order to gain perspective, historical fact needs to be tempered with the larger picture, of the results of a given action or directing that has been taken.

Certainly to know where we have been, and where we are helps build a more accurate picture of where we need to or should avoid heading.

It is interesting to hear of those times first hand, so yes thank you h4831 for sharing the reality you lived. So in your opinion you feel that was a better way?

 

[critter928]

Sure, nature will balance itself out. But it does it with peaks and valleys.

Humans generally prefer a flatter line, and that is what is what we strive for in wildlife management.

Regulated human hunters will never, ever have the impact on moose population that a high predator population will have.

Here is a good read on BC moose population, and if predation or human harvesting is effecting the population.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/fw/wildlife/management-issues/docs/Moose%20Selective%20Harvest_15%20July%202011.pdf

Does harvesting moose reduce predation rates for moose and is predator management a necessary component of a moose harvest strategy?
Wolves and bears are both effective predators on moose. Bears normally prey on young calves whereas any moose is potentially vulnerable to wolves throughout the year. Most moose harvest strategies attempt to promote first oestrus breeding, which helps to ensure that calves are born within a short period of time, and thereby reduce the time period where calves are at very high predation risk. Also, prime aged moose are normally less vulnerable to predation, except for bulls during the post-rut period. Biologists account for predation during the moose population assessment when an annual allowable harvest is established. Thus, while harvesting moose may help to reduce predation rates on calves, predator management is not a necessary component of a moose harvest strategy.
Where predators are abundant, moose populations exist at low densities and winter calf:cow ratios are typically 25 calves:100 cows or less. Under these conditions even a small harvest of cows may cause a moose population to further decline. Therefore, many wildlife management agencies
employ a “bull-only” harvest strategy where predators are abundant, and moose densities and calf recruitment are low. Where predators are not abundant the selective harvest of cows and/or calves, in addition to a controlled bull harvest, is beneficial as it ensures that populations are maintained within habitat capabilities and within a range that optimizes harvest yield.

 

[moose2hunt]

Well it doesn’t take a wildlife biologist to see that our moose numbers are down and bears are up ..Take a drive in the country like I did today to my favorite gravel pit to do some shooting...I saw 3 blacks one real nice one well worth shooting …I have never felt the need to shoot a bear …but it was a nice one …Last fall during hunting season I saw 6 wolves ..Untold numbers of coyotes and more black bears than I can ever remember seeing …..last year I took 2 wolves 6 coyotes …but I do not tell people this at home …to many people object to it as a waste …I have a trapper buddy that will take whatever I shoot …so it’s something I do …
But a lot less people are doing it …all the older guys that I hunt with don’t any more ..and most would shoot a bear at the drop of a hat 25/30 years back …
.now is it more predators out there keeping moose numbers down or is it hunter numbers ….in the past the weather made a mess of the roads and kept access down in the area I hunt in …we have set up a camp in the same area for 30 years we drive in and after that we never drive for the next 2 weeks..But the guys on quads drive up and down the roads steady and get in to places by cutting trails from on cut block to the other so they now have loops to drive around on ….I don’t know if they shoot more moose this way ..But the hunter numbers are way up

 

[Demonical]

^ Critter, all that stuff about the benefit of protecting breeding females has been known for a long time. AB hasn't had a cow moose season, in the zones I hunt for 20 years. That hasn't had any effect at all in helping the moose numbers.



Did you check out any of the moose mortality studies? Approx 65% of all moose calves are taken by bears, in the first 14 weeks of life. That doesn't leave a lot of calves to survive the winter, once the wolves kick into high gear. Because winter is when they kill the most.

In the area where we hunt the rarest thing you'll see is a cow, with 2 calves come October. The bears are guaranteed to have taken one; in most cases, when we see a cow these days, she is barren. No calves have survived.

It didn't used to be like that. Man the moose numbers here, in the 1980s... I don't hope to ever see them recover, in my life time, which is sad.

I've been hunting the Swan Hills area of central AB for 32 years. It's depressing to see what has happened to the moose herd, over that time.

The collapse of the moose herd here, began with several severe winters, exacerbated by tick infestations. But the numbers have gone down in plateaus and then level off, each time at lower over-all numbers.

During this time there has been an observed explosion in wolf numbers. There was a fascinating study published in the Edmonton Journal (5-6 years ago now), which verified what I'm saying. Wolf numbers in AB are at all time highs, referencing any recorded data.

I can remember when seeing a wolf was a rare event, and a thrill. Not now. One of the most effective ways to hunt wolves here is to call moose!! There's such a small moose herd now, that when the wolves hear a moose call, they home in on it. Big time.

And because the moose numbers have crashed, the wolves have started to clean out the deer.



It's not all on the wolves of course; the Gov't of AB decided they needed more revenue, so they instituted a whitetail doe license up in these areas. STUPID IDEA!! So now the whitetail numbers are also the lowest I've ever seen up here...



Another factor: Indians are exempt from regulations and quotas. They show up in the Swan Hills starting in Aug-Sep and shoot every moose in sight.



I'd say the moose herd here is f**ked...



Oh yeah, when we hunted moose in 2010 we saw 3 moose in a week; all bulls that we called in. Not a single cow or calf...

 

[critter928]

Well it doesn’t take a wildlife biologist to see that our moose numbers are down and bears are up ..Take a drive in the country like I did today to my favorite gravel pit to do some shooting...I saw 3 blacks one real nice one well worth shooting …I have never felt the need to shoot a bear …but it was a nice one …Last fall during hunting season I saw 6 wolves ..Untold numbers of coyotes and more black bears than I can ever remember seeing …..last year I took 2 wolves 6 coyotes …but I do not tell people this at home …to many people object to it as a waste …I have a trapper buddy that will take whatever I shoot …so it’s something I do …
But a lot less people are doing it …all the older guys that I hunt with don’t any more ..and most would shoot a bear at the drop of a hat 25/30 years back …
.now is it more predators out there keeping moose numbers down or is it hunter numbers ….in the past the weather made a mess of the roads and kept access down in the area I hunt in …we have set up a camp in the same area for 30 years we drive in and after that we never drive for the next 2 weeks..But the guys on quads drive up and down the roads steady and get in to places by cutting trails from on cut block to the other so they now have loops to drive around on ….I don’t know if they shoot more moose this way ..But the hunter numbers are way up

And this is something I have witnessed over the years as well.

30 years ago when I went hunting with my dad, we did it on foot and if we were lucky enough to come across a moose we took it. Then a few years later we bought an Argo and could get farther back into the bush and swamp where the moose thrived, and we could pick and choose which ones we wanted, and often passed up many we would have gladly taken a few years earlier.

Now days logging roads and ATVs make areas that moose used to thrive, breed, and avoid hunters, open to even the laziest and most inept hunters around. I remember running into hunters 30 years ago and if they couldn't get to the game with their truck, they never filled their tag. Now, you can get almost anywhere without working for it and there are no more safe breeding grounds left.

Perhaps the days of no ATVs and having to walk all day and pack an animal out on foot was allot more sustainable to wildlife numbers.