SVT40 bayonet
- Thread starter KGB2014
- Start date
Weimajack has some. $235 or $84
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1717670-russian-svt-40-bayonets?highlight=Svt
https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1717670-russian-svt-40-bayonets?highlight=Svt
- Location
- Leduc County, Alberta
Trade Ex has some too.
Which you've stated many times, and yet never once offered any evidence that you've even handled one, an assertion that stems, primarily, from your well known and longstanding beef with the original importer. And yet others have offered evidence that they are, in fact, refurbs, done for the Polish military while the SVT was in use at training academies. That Weimajack is carrying them and presenting them as a Polish Refurb says a lot, and he has 10x the credibility around here that you ever will. He's probably the most respected Red Rifle reseller on the board, and his reputation is his primary trade and currency.
FWIW... I actually photo-documented unpacking one, way back when they first came into the country and I was given (gratis, free, without conditions or obligation) as a part of a separate deal, as a "thank you."
Now, you can blow hard all you want (it appears to be your primary skill in life), but I'll present some pics, and let people decide for themselves. If they are fakes, then someone went to a crazy amount of effort to make them appear otherwise, including storing them in wax paper and grease for decades, and using Polish military stampings on them - when Soviet refurb marks would be the far more obvious (and logical) choice for creating a fake.
Click on thumbnails for full size images.
Side by side comparison with a Soviet SVT Bayonet. Of note is the slightly different sheath, a peculiarity of the Polish reworks.
Horilka, you have more than half a decade of grinding an axe with one particular importer, and now you seem willing to throw Weimajack under the bus as well, as a part of your little crusade. I've watched from the sidelines as you've raged and cast un-subtle aspersions on a respected dealer, and mostly just let it go. The beef between the two of you is your own business. But now you're implicitly dragging another dealer into it, and I'm calling you on it. It's time to pony up with some actual evidence, or shut your dang pie-hole.
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Captmidnite
New member
- Location
- Kelowna BC
bought Russian repro Tula Star for $180. new at local gunshow....willing to part with for $180. traded gun for original ($220).
That's quite an invitation for discussion
Wash your mouth, young mister. You're calling me on it, lol, you made my day I have no issues with any business, it's not about who sell, it's about what is sold. If I see a fake I call it a fake. I dealt with Weimajack and he's solid, good guy to deal with, but it doesn't change the fact bayos are fakes, or reproductions depending on one's definition. Or you think he does not deserve to know other opinions?
I will elaborate because as I know there are many collectors here who DO care about what they pay they money for.
The only picture that doesn't go along with "fake" is wrapping paper, nice work I must say.
But then I dare you among your extensive collection (or among publicly available pictures) please pretty please find me bayonet with Izhevsk marking on the guard. Wow, look how nice, fresh and crisp this marking on your bayo. After all reworks and rebluings.... Hmm, it reminds me something. Oh, now I recall - there were fake Izhevsk snipers with same markings. Two or three surfaced in Canada. Exactly the same die. Was it also faked in Poland before 1957 or whatever date is on your wrapping paper? What a coincindence spreading across half a century and continents. I'm starting to believe in miracles.
But there's more to it. These recent "parade bayonets" with beatiful legend that they were made for parade in Moscow. Have you seen a single one in Russia or on Russian collectors' forums? Eh... never-mind, I have same fake die on these bayonets too! Wow, it's not just a miracle, I'm starting to believe in God! A die that traveled from 1957 from Poland to Canada, then to Russia and all of that just to please Canadian collectors!
Now, thruth be told, there's version of Izhevsk triangle on some of these "Polish reworks" (wait, how would I know? - according to you I never handled one!) stamped on the blade, guess what - it's also not authentic. Why would any "rework" have fake markings curious mind would ask? Questions, questions... so hard to make any conclusion...
Oops, here's original Izhevsk triangle, sorry it does not look like fake one.
Hold on, what about fuller shape, I guess re-bluing changes the shape of original fuller, no? Dang. That's pretty heavy rework, nicely adjusting fuller shape to Polish army standards.
OK, I can believe in time machine moving fake dies back and forth and blade shape changes. But what about period pictures? I'm also sure you can find so many period pictures of these bayonets and post here. Or pictures and references of them being sold in Poland where they should be known to Polish collectors for decades. If you ever watched a....o.pl for SVT bayonets you would had noticed how many of these? Right, zero, nicht. Or is this exclusive offering for Canadian and US customers? I said it once - I have no goal of damaging anyone's reputation, but if I'm being asked I would tell my opinion and I point to the facts, and sorry for hurting your feeling but it happened that SVT is my area of expertise.
Now, having said all of that. I was wrong many times in my life (damn those girls are really hard to understand) and I had guts to acknowledge this. Your only evidence is piece of wrapping paper and as I said - I like it, looks good with date and serial number and that's the only piece that doesn't go along with my conclusion. Yes, I could call wrapping paper fake but I don't know that for sure and I won't do it. [Corrected: I've just got expert opinion that paper is clearly "aged"]. My evidences are all above - same fake die on items from different time periods and different countries, absence of period pictures, absence of references in Poland (for "Polish rework") and from Russia (for "parade bayonet"). Change my mind with facts and explanations and I will publicly acknowledge I was wrong. And I expect same from your side - assess the facts I presented, explain them and tell what you think now. I'm calling you on it
Or even better - let's have serious discussion on GunBoards so some experts that are not here would weight in, how about that? Be well David from the book of Samuel
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That's quite an invitation for discussion
I have no issues with any business, it's not about who sell, it's about what is sold. If I see a fake I call it a fake. I dealt with Weimajack and he's solid, good guy to deal with, but it doesn't change the fact bayos are fakes, or reproductions depending on one's definition. Or you think he does not deserve to know other opinions?
I will elaborate because as I know there are many collectors here who DO care about what they pay they money for.
The only picture that doesn't go along with "fake" is wrapping paper, nice work I must say.
And you're accusing me of wrapping that bayo to "fake" it? LMFAO. I couldn't be arsed. The wrapping was as I received it. And others received them at the time. That you would accuse me of faking the wrapping, shows how little you are aware about this batch of imports. After unwrapping it, I tested it for fit, and it went into the pile with the rest of my bayonets (only one other SVT bayonet - it's one of the few rifles I have two bayos for).
I'm not in the business of selling milsurps (I've sold exactly zero milsurps), I have no interest in faking anything. I buy them, shoot them, enjoy them for the history of what they are. And mostly just store them.
But sure, I got hold of some wax paper and yarn, faked a label. Faux aged it. Wrapped it up tight while I "aged", somehow without affecting the underlying metal.
Wow. I'm in the wrong business. I need to be a master forger.
Look again at the stamp on the blade shown. The fletching of the arrow clearly misses the bottom of the triangle, and on the pictures you're showing, it touches. Also, the bottom of the triangle on the two pictures you show is slightly curved, and flat on the "fake" (according to you, and only you - you're the only person who's ever made that claim) Polish refurbs.
In short - it's not the same stamp. (p.s. I fixed the broken links to the enlargements). A close examination of the pictures clearly indicates that these are not the same stamps.
And again, your awareness of these bayos shows its limits. The bayonets were made from spare Soviet hardware, some parts were made in Poland and to make up whatever missing parts were needed, including frequently the blades.
In this case, the ZMPT on the blade is indicative of a small metalworks in Poland, Zakłady Metalowe Przemysłu Terenow - a small (now closed) metalworks in Poznan. So the size of the fuller would be... Whatever the metalworks in Poznan made it to be.
Calling them "refurbs" might, I will grant, be a stretch of the word "refurb". "Re-manufactured" would be a closer description.
Now, having said all of that. I was wrong many times in my life (damn those girls are really hard to understand) and I had guts to acknowledge this. Your only evidence is piece of wrapping paper and as I said - I like it, looks good with date and serial number and that's the only piece that doesn't go along with my conclusion. Yes, I can call wrapping paper fake but I don't know that for sure and I won't do it. My evidences are all above - same fake die on items from different time periods and different countries, absence of period pictures, absence of references in Poland (for "Polish rework") and from Russia (for "parade bayonet"). Change my mind with facts and explanations and I will publicly acknowledge I was wrong. And I expect same from your side - assess the facts I presented, explain them and tell what you think now. I'm calling you on it
Be well David from the book of Samuel
As a general rule, I respect your opinion on Red Rifles. You have a fantastic collection, and generally do your research. In this case, you've allowed a private beef with an importer to cloud your judgement.
In this case? You're mistaken.
This is a case of Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is most likely the correct one.
As you yourself have indicated, the wrapping alone tells the story. Ephemera is incredibly hard to properly fake. And in this case, it would be unnecessary. If the goal was to simply pass them off to the unwary, why bother? It would be a lot of work for no appreciable gain.
The stamp you cite as indicative of a "hump" - is not the same stamp as the one you compare it to. There are clear differences (although, granted, it would be hard to tell from the thumbnails, which is why I fixed the link to the originals.)
We know that the Poles reworked (re-manufactured) bayonets during the 50's, for use in their officer's academy, using whatever parts were left over from the original production (which is why the stamp would be in good condition - the guard would never have been installed, simply new old stock used to save some money). Whatever wasn't immediately needed, was simply put into storage, greased and wrapped to preserve the metal.
If I were to claim these were an "original Soviet" bayonet, well, that would be demonstrably false. But fake? That doesn't fit either. The markings on them are too odd for that. If one was to "fake" them, it would be far easier to "fake" a Soviet made bayonet, and far more profitable. The Polish re-manufactured bayos? That's a tad obscure of a market to go for.
The markings on these bayos fit what happened in Poland in the 50's. The wrapping fits.
Now we're talking.
You clearly misunderstood me. I never said it was you who faked the wrapping. Here's another picture that I showed to another expert (because I know nothing about papers) and he said it is clearly fake, aged fake.
In my opinion - it's a) same die just struck with slightly different force and b) it's not authentic die - again, no such marking on any original Izhevsk bayonet.
OK, you're entitled to your opinion - let's say there are three different dies on pictures, show me at least one of them on original bayonet. You can't because it's fake die.
Yes, I'm the only guy who say it's fake. Because normally SVT collectors don't care about post-war stuff and only reason I know about those bayos because I was asked to provide my opinion once. You want more collectors to chime in - wait until I open topic on GunBoards.
I know ZMPT meaning. Why would some newly made blades have fake Izhevsk markings? Why would original recycled blades be missing technological make markings? Why would fake Izhevsk marking be on the guard?
IMO Reproduction is a close copy that is advertise as that. Fake - something that it pretends to be, in this case "polish reworks" are more or less modern loose copies pretending to be "1950x Polish arsenal reworks" and "Moscow parade bayonets" have nothing to do with parade or Moscow.
All I care is authenticity or not of items that pass by me. If you ask me about specific item - I will give you straight answer. And sometimes I warn ppl - you might not like the answer to your question, I don't like to bring bad news to ppl, but for collector authenticity is above everything.
As I pointed - wrapping is also fake, not my opinion, but opinion of a another respected expert. You haven't provided anything I asked (like period pictures or references to Polish auctions or collector's resources describing those bayonets) and explained how fake markings ended up on 1957 "reworks". If you want I can reiterate my questions without irony. Just ask yourself these questions.
Your conclusion is based on your assumption that "we know Poles reworked" and you believing wrapping is original. How do you know? Documents? All I see is fake bayonets, sorry. The only thing that originally confused me is wrap, but not anymore, now I'm 100% sure.
Why would someone do this? It's not a question and not an argument. We're talking about markings, documents, facts, pictures. Not reasons as they might be irrelevant.
Ok boys, that was very entertaining to read! Thank you! No, really, thank you!!
You both are the experts compare to me and watching you - it’s like clash of the titans.
So why is there such a difference in price between polish one and parade? Is the parade one made from the tinfoil or smthing?
You both are the experts compare to me and watching you - it’s like clash of the titans.
So why is there such a difference in price between polish one and parade? Is the parade one made from the tinfoil or smthing?
I know the parade bayo I bought is not a "Real McCoy"of a SVT40 bayonet. At this price point ($80), I have something to play with and stick on the end of my SVT40s for all the weenie roasts. Enfield (jungle carbine) No.5 bayonets are also very pricey and rare and I'm happy with my RFI reproduction. Getting new toys delivered is always exciting!
I will be in Moscow and St. Petersburg in June and was thinking of visiting some of their flea markets. I have seen a YouTube videos with tons of stuff been sold there from the ww2. I could see lots of bayonets in these videos but couldn’t positively identify the SVT40 ones. Not sure about the legality of taking this stuff out of the country either. I hope to find more info once I get there.
