Swapping powder

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PlaidSon

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I'm gearing up to reload my first rifle caliber, 45-70. I'm excited because of the diversity of loading for it. As much room as there is for experimentation, I'm sure I'll find a favorite load some day. What if I can't get that powder in years to come? From a trajectory point of view, is muzzle velocity and bullet weight/BCE enough to create an round that remains true to my sight configuration. We're talking about a vernier style sight.

To phrase it another way, will I see similar bullet drops with the same muzzle velocity and bullet regardless of powder burn rate? Any effect on windage?

I think too much but in my head I can argue eather way. Time to set the record straight.
 
You may be able to obtain similar results/point of impact, but by nature a different but rate will taste different to your gun. So same day, same temp, maybe result equitable hits at certain distance with your tuned load but 20 or 30 degrees difference temp maybe a different story. Different burn rate will change your harmonics and build up of pressure, it'll take you some experimenting, but for the most part should be doable for vernier style accuracy.
 
You just mention the cartridge you are interested in, not what you are using it in. There is an extremely important distinction.

I have eliminated may of the 45-70s from my safe because I can no longer handle the recoil in the velocity ranges they work best in. All of them worked well with smokeless powder. they ranged between Lever Actions (not my bag) to converted Siamese Mausers and converted Pattern 14 Enfields.

The two rifles I have retained are single shots. Both are clones made up of modern steels to modern tolerances. They both seem to shoot best with black powder. A little different to keep clean and clean up later but nothing to worry about. The next batch of bullets to be heaved downrange will be powder coated. Not sure how well they will work but if required they have lube and crimp grooves in the three different weights/designs I have molds for.

All I am saying is don't forget about black powder. It is far more pleasing and reliable/consistent than most people realize. Cast lead is also something not to overlook.
 
I have experimented with both smokeless & black powder in my Browning 1885 BPCR.

Black powder gave the best accuracy & it is also much easier on the nut behind the trigger. Cleanup on the rifle is easy with BP. but a little extra work is required on the fired cases, however I find it worth the extra effort.
 
Every powder will give you different results. I tried a few different powders with 405gr cast and also with the Hornady 325FTX projectiles and while I could get decent accuracy with most powders each one required it's own load development. I ended up settling on Varget under the 405gr hard cast bullets and was getting decent accuracy.

When you find a load it likes be happy and stock up on powder, don't just buy one pound then wait till you're almost out, buy 8 pounds or more at a time once you know your rifle likes it.
Some day when you can't find that powder anymore you'll be just like the rest of us have been for the last couple years and you'll buy what is available and do some load development and see if your rifle likes it then buy as much as you can whenever you find it. I have load development done for most of the cartridges I load for with multiple powder and bullet options. I have my preferences and what I feel is best but also some options in case I can't get more of a certain component.

I would strongly suggest sticking to the lower to mid power loads with the 45-70. Trying to get maximum velocity really hurts your shoulder and I didn't find any loads up in the painful zone that actually gave good accuracy. This may have been because I found it uncomfortable to shoot when I was running the hotter loads and was probably developing a flinch. A 405gr pill at around 1800fps was a nice compromise. Nothing you do will make the cartridge flat shooting so accuracy is more important than velocity with this one. Then you learn your trajectory if you are going to shoot beyond 200 yards and you can make hits quite a ways out.

I found the factory Hornady 325gr FTX LeverEvolution loads were very accurate in my Marlin but I was never able to duplicate them and get the same performance. They were always my fallback hunting load if I didn't have any good handloads made when it was time to head out into the bush.

If you're going to be shooting cast be sure to watch for leading in your barrel. I was lazy with mine for a while and my groups went crazy till I gave it a really good cleaning.

Good luck
 
If you're doing long range precision stuff, the same powder from two different lot numbers can change your PoI with identical loads. Same goes for different lot of primers, bullets, cases, etc. I don't know how far you're shooting or how how good of a shot you are. Personally I don't notice often unless using a scope; even at a few hundred yards.

Ambient temperature was already mentioned but humidity also comes into play somewhat. As well as elevation, wind, and many other factors. Sights are adjustable for a reason; you are likely to have to adjust them down the road even if you stick to the "same" components based on brand.
 
For those asking I'll be shooting 405 grain loads, I will probably not exceed 30000psi. The rifle is a Marlin 1895 Cowboy. I'm going to mount a vernier sight on the reciver and try to reach out to 500 yards. I'd like to take game at 300 if need be. I think for the kind of shooting I do I should be able to work with the sight. I'm not looking to put shots on top of shots. it'd be nice to be in the 2moa group though.
 
PlaidSon said:
It's just a goal haha. I think I can do it but I'd have to be darn sure before I tried it.
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I can shoot a fairly tight group at that distance with my Browning BPCR & soule sights. That said this is from a bench, taking my time. I doubt I could do it off hand & with the added adrenalin pumping as in a hunting situation.

Good luck in your efforts & enjoy that rifle & a fine old cartridge.:)
 
PlaidSon said:
For those asking I'll be shooting 405 grain loads, I will probably not exceed 30000psi. The rifle is a Marlin 1895 Cowboy. I'm going to mount a vernier sight on the reciver and try to reach out to 500 yards. I'd like to take game at 300 if need be. I think for the kind of shooting I do I should be able to work with the sight. I'm not looking to put shots on top of shots. it'd be nice to be in the 2moa group though.
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My Marlin would do around 2 MOA with the 405gr cast slugs but that was off sandbags at the range with a 3-9 power scope. I would never shoot 300 yards at an animal with that rifle unless I was starving. You owe it to the animal to make a quick humane kill and that is very unlikely at 300 yards with iron sights. In the field your groups will be more like 6 moa if you're lucky and that's not very good for shooting critters at 300 yards.
I don't know where you're hunting but in my opinion you should either get closer or choose a more appropriate firearm. The 45-70 is a great bush gun and is perfect for shots 200 yards and closer but it is far from ideal if you're hunting open fields where the critters will see you coming from a long way out. I hunt mostly bush and I haven't needed to make a shot on an animal over 100 yards in years.
 
cr5 said:
My Marlin would do around 2 MOA with the 405gr cast slugs but that was off sandbags at the range with a 3-9 power scope. I would never shoot 300 yards at an animal with that rifle unless I was starving. You owe it to the animal to make a quick humane kill and that is very unlikely at 300 yards with iron sights. In the field your groups will be more like 6 moa if you're lucky and that's not very good for shooting critters at 300 yards.
I don't know where you're hunting but in my opinion you should either get closer or choose a more appropriate firearm. The 45-70 is a great bush gun and is perfect for shots 200 yards and closer but it is far from ideal if you're hunting open fields where the critters will see you coming from a long way out. I hunt mostly bush and I haven't needed to make a shot on an animal over 100 yards in years.
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Where I hunt usually, I'm in a blind with an apple pile maybe 75 yards out. If I'm confident I can hit the vitals at 300 yards with my setup I'd take the shot, a 405gr. bullet should carry enough energy to kill a deer to quite a distance. The only thing I want you all to know is I would NEVER take a shot unless I know it'll be a quick drop. Anyway, I have more questions haha.

The data here is from Hodgdon's website:

Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. Pressure Grs. Vel. Pressure

405gr. Trapdoor H4198 .458" 2.540" 27.0 1,251 14,200 CUP 31.0 1,459 17,100 CUP
400gr. Marlin H4198 .458" 2.540" 46.0 1,854 29,500 CUP 50.5 2,002 39,400 CUP

Does that mean I could load anywhere between 27 and 50.5 grains safely, staying under 46gr. to keep my top pressure around 30000 psi.
 
PlaidSon said:
Where I hunt usually, I'm in a blind with an apple pile maybe 75 yards out. If I'm confident I can hit the vitals at 300 yards with my setup I'd take the shot, a 405gr. bullet should carry enough energy to kill a deer to quite a distance. The only thing I want you all to know is I would NEVER take a shot unless I know it'll be a quick drop. Anyway, I have more questions haha.

The data here is from Hodgdon's website:

Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. Pressure Grs. Vel. Pressure

405gr. Trapdoor H4198 .458" 2.540" 27.0 1,251 14,200 CUP 31.0 1,459 17,100 CUP
400gr. Marlin H4198 .458" 2.540" 46.0 1,854 29,500 CUP 50.5 2,002 39,400 CUP

Does that mean I could load anywhere between 27 and 50.5 grains safely, staying under 46gr. to keep my top pressure around 30000 psi.
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The 45-70 is easily capable of cleanly taking just about an North American game if the shooter is capable enough and practiced enough to be intimate with the bullets trajectory anywhere from a few feet from the muzzle to out past the 300 yard mark. I have personally seen shots made with that cartridge/rifle combo beyond that distance. The thing is, I have never seen it done successfully off hand. Most shooters aren't capable of a 13cm group offhand with any rifle/cartridge combo at 100 yards. I am not saying you can't do it but can you do it consistently???
 
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