Swedish Mauser accuracy woes.

The_Shmoo

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Finally got a chance to take my 94/14 Swede out to the range, and the results were less than stellar. At 50m, couldn't get a single round on a 3 foot square piece of cardboard with S&B 140gr FMJ. I thought I saw one round on an earlier target keyhole through the edge, but couldn't replicate to confirm that.

Now I know the sight holds are all over the map with the early carbines and the faster pointy bullets, but could the bore be so clapped out that it's throwing bullets like knuckleballs, and outside of slugging the bore are there some simple checks I can do to verify this thing isn't a lost cause.
 
A reasonable 2 second check would be to try to fit a bullet (within a loaded round) into the muzzle - slide pointy end into muzzle - it should not go in all the way - should be held back by the rifling - if it goes all the way into the neck of the case, the bore / muzzle area is exceedingly worn. Also, worth to pull the bolt from rifle and look down the bore from the chamber end - bore pointed towards a light source - do you see sharp shouldered rifling all the way from close to other end? Or a bunch of crud left behind that needs to be cleaned out? Or any copper colour within the rifling or grooves, visible from either front or back ends?

Another "trick" is simply to get closer to your target. Not stupid at all to start at 25 meters or even less - is how I "bore sight" new-to-me used scopes onto new-to-me used rifles - never really know where the holes will show up. And a 3 feet x 3 feet paper target is also a good idea. Can not fix what you do not know is going on. Hopefully you get a nice tight cluster of round holes, off in a corner somewheres - would be just a matter of adjusting sights, if that was the case. Almost always shoot two or three shots at same aiming point, before making any adjustments - you want to gain some sense about how close it can place bullet holes together - at 25 meters, would be nice if the holes touch or are very close to each other. Kind of not-so-nice if get 3 holes 4" or 5" apart, like one that I have here will do.
 
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PM, got your message, will keep you in the loop.

It definitely fails the muzzle test, slides right in. The rifling is definitely there, but I'm not a particularly good judge on these types of things, don't really have much experience on this yet. I'm gonna try and scrounge up something to slug the bore.

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So, my first reaction to that picture was that you have stuck a 6.5 bullet into a 7mm bore, or something. I hope that you have good reason to know that your 94/14 is still chambered to 6.5x55, like it was originally. I don't think I have seen any Swede rifles that bad, but likely mid 1950's since Swede military had anything to do with it.

The usual theory is that the bullet is close to the groove diameter, and therefore the lands (riflings) have to cut into the bullet jacket to make it spin. I do not know the specs for Swede 6.5x55, but for example a 7.62 NATO will use a .308" bullet - should be close to that groove diameter - and riflings are cut .004" deep - so a .300" hole is bored through first. I presume Swede 6.5 are done similar, but I do not know the numbers for it. Some bullet designs also "slug up" - with the push from behind, their base gets fatter to seal better to the grooves. So the usual description of "slugging a bore" is to push a soft lead slug through from one end to another - that gives you a "reverse imprint" on the slug - so long as you have 2, 4, or 6 riflings - just measure from one side to the other to find out your "groove diameter" - should be quite close to what the fat part of your bullets measure. If you have 3 or 5 riflings, is a bit more complicated to measure, since they do not line up across the centre from each other. You need to be able to measure accurately to at least .001" - to .0001" is better - so probably want to use a micrometer, not a calliper - and likely want to repeat both the slug and the measuring a couple times, to be sure.

The soft lead slugs will not change over time, and is for sure the traditional way to establish the groove size. Can do a slug just into the "free bore" area and back out. Can go just into first inch of rifling and back out - all gives you different information about different parts of your barrel's bore. Some of us prefer to do cerrosafe casts, into the chamber throat and first part of rifling, or into the muzzle - can only get an accurate measurement at the 60 minute mark because the stuff continues to swell over time, and next days measurements will be larger than the 60 minute measurement.

Too boot, pushing the slug all the way through will tell you only the smallest place along the bore - the tightest "squeeze" that it went through along it's trip. You might even feel that as you do the slug - a section of the bore that feels tighter than before - sometimes can even feel that when you are cleaning with a snug fitting patch on a jag. That is one piece of the puzzle. The other important part is to press a slug maybe one half inch into muzzle and then back out again - gives you the muzzle diameter - the exact point where the bore should "let go" of the bullet. Some rifles have seen sloppy use of a metal cleaning rod - inserted into the muzzle - or same can be done with the cord on a pull-through type cleaner - eroding away the rifling at the muzzle - makes it larger than it used to be. So far as I know, that muzzle condition is pretty critical to how the bullet flies once it leaves the barrel - that "crown" wants to be square to the centre of the bore, and wants to release the bullet evenly - all the way around, at the same time. About worst is a ding or chunk missing - most likely causes the bullet to start tumbling end over end due to very uneven release.

There was an old technique called "back boring", I think, that essentially drilled out the bore, back into the barrel, and re-established a "crown" back inside where the rifling was still "good". Not sure if militaries did that, but has been done on some older or abused guns to restore some level of accuracy. If your rifle barrel has been "back bored" already, that would explain why that bullet went in so deeply - but I take your post to say that you see rifling at the muzzle, so that is not likely the case. The back boring that I have seen takes at least half or more of the existing barrel wall when that bore is drilled out - i do not know if that is how a "pro" does it or not.
 
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You should slug the barrel to know the exact measurement of the bore.
I have a Swedish M38 with a pristine bore that slug at 0.268, so the normal .264 bullets are not super accurate. Cast bullets of the right size are much better in that case.
 
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Stolen from Wikipedia about Swede 6.5x55: "The common rifling twist rate for this cartridge is 220 mm (1 in 8.66 in), 4 grooves, Ø lands = 6.50 mm (0.256 in), Ø grooves = 6.73 mm (0.265 in), land width = 2.5 mm (0.098 in), and the primer type is large rifle. According to the official C.I.P."

So .265" grooves less .256" bore, divided by two means the rifling is cut .0045" deep, as per CIP. CIP was started in 1914, so I presume they borrowed standards for 6.5x55 from the Swedes / Norwegians who had been making them since early 1890's??
 
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Yes. Some Swede 94 carbines are in 7mm Mauser.

About 2000 of these guns were converted to 7mm Mauser by Madsen in Denmark in the 1950's. A number of these ended up in El Salvador and fewer than 100 of them in rough shape were eventually imported back to the US from El Salvador.
 
Swede 94 in 7x57 - I would hope the OP would notice the difference in the cases before and after firing - but I suppose a lot is possible!!!

A previously fired S&B 6.5x55 on left and a previously fired Remington 7x57 on right. Except for neck diameter, and slight shoulder length difference, not just a lot of difference!!! In theory the 6.5x55 should have slightly larger rim diameter than 7x57, but I do not know how Madsen did the conversions - reaming out chamber and then re-doing the bore (re-bore to .275" which would clean out 6.5 x55 grooves, then cut grooves .005" to get .285" groove diameter), or just replacing entire barrel? I would suspect that conversion was done as cheaply as possible??

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Well that's an...interesting theory. Now you guys have really piqued my interest. I'm gonna run out to crappy tire tomorrow if I have time, try and find something to slug this thing with.
 
Are you sure it's chambered for the 6.5x55??

Your rifle may actually be chambered for the great 7x57 Mauser cartridge??

I haven't tried a case yet to see if the X55 case will fit into a X57 chamber. The specs show that the X55 should fit into the X57 chamber

What do your fired cases look like??

Back in the day, when the first M94s were coming into Canada, I picked up five of them. Every single one of them had worn out, pitted bores, even though they looked to be Very Good or better on the outside.

I bought them from Ye Olde Hunter, out of the US.

Sorry PAM I didn't read all of the posts before replying.
 
Yup, looking more so like a 7mm

I’ve handled a couple of the 7x57s, my buddy owns one. I have the original 6.5 carbine, though the 7x57s I had chances at were in better shape, I’m a 6.5 guy.
 
Failing that Tradex had some new 94 barrels in 6.5x55 It is likely a 7x57 by the look of the fired case.
 
I have one in 7X57 and one in 6.5X55.

The barrel is not marked.

I doubt if you hurt anything by shooting 6.5 Swede in your 7X57 rifle.
 
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Your barrel should be stamped with the caliber, should it not? I hope there's no permanent damage to a rare gun. Glad you were able to figure out the caliber, 7mm is a great caliber.

Depending who altered the barrel chamber, it might or might not be marked - or perhaps marked in a way that is not normally recognized today, or perhaps not in English, etc. For example, at that time, I think the Spanish referred to the cartridge as 7 mm. The British called it 275 Rigby. Today, most of us in Canada call it the 7x57, but is also known as 7mm Mauser and other names. Looking at this NOS Swede M94 barrel, it is NOT marked, except for a Swede Crown at the very bottom of chamber area (well under the wood) - it headspace fine as 6.5x55 turned into an available receiver and random bolt. A different barrel - very "rusty crusty" original M94 - has the rifle's serial number - 19398 - on left side of chamber area, and the Swede crown on bottom, but nothing to indicate the cartridge. I believe I had read that Madsen had bought surplus rifles from Sweden - converted then, and re-sold to Caribbean or Central America nation - was not a nation's military "arsenal" conversion. Most M94 were surplused in 1950's from Swede military - could have been re-bored and re-chambered or barrel replaced at any time in past 60 to 65 years (?)

For those who may not know - starting with a 7x57 chambered small ring barrel, would not be terribly challenging to turn the outside steps to the M94 contour and to cut to length - then to re-blue it. Any number of "home tinkerer" types like me could probably do that with the lathe and bluing tanks - did not have to be done by a gunsmith, arsenal or factory.

For example, Spanish rifles using 1893 pattern, Boer War Mausers, many South and Central American contracts, even Mexico Mausers all in 7x57, all small ring - many or all would simply screw right onto a Swede M94 receiver and headspace likely OK, if not "perfect", which some will be. Will need external contour turned to match the "steps" in the M94 barrel so the M94 hand guard, front and rear sight fit.
 
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I tried a full length sized Norma brand 6.5x55 into a pre-WWI german 7x57 sporter. Won't quite let the bolt close. I think is hanging up at rear end of the case. At very rear end, 6.5x55 chamber is .4815" as per SAAMI; 7x57 chamber is .4777" A 6.5x55 cartridge calls out by SAAMI at .4803" diameter on rear end. So a 6.5x55 case is a smidgeon too fat on very rear, to fit into a SAAMI 7x57 chamber. But if chamber had first been 6.5x55, then reamed out for 7x57 without shortening the barrel, I think a 6.5x55 would fit into that re-done chamber. Most military do not reload cases - so fire new round, extract and on to next new round - would never know the difference how chamber was done?

I also tried with a made-in-1955 Husqvarna Model 4100 in 7x57 - same story - quite certain I am seeing rub marks on extreme rear end of the case, where it would have been trying to enter chamber. Bolt was all the way forward, but would not turn down.

I have no new factory 6.5x55 brass to try - all here has been previously fired at least once.
 
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