Swiss Arms POI shift

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ianfroese

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I got to spend a bit of time shooting today, and decided to do some testing. I knew that due to the lack of a free float handguard/bipod on the Swiss, there could be some POI shift between free hand and using the bipod. I decided to find out just how much it was. In this picture, you can see two groups (forgive the horizontal stringing, I had a pretty inconsistent 90 degree crosswind). I've put a yellow dot on the bipod shots, and a purple dot on the free hand shots.

To me it looks like about a 3-3.5" difference between the two methods of support, at 100m. I found that pretty interesting, as I didn't think the difference would be that much! I guess it pays to know your rifle, and zero accordingly to how you plan to shoot.

 
WTF!? Dude, there is something wrong with your Swiss Arms!! I'll take it off your hands for $500 cash.
 
Mine did the same thing.
The biggest laugh is that some guys are going to tell you that the bipod is only to keep it out of the mud and you're not supposed to shoot from it.

The SA is a beautifully built rifle, I had the flat top target version of the classic green. It was pretty close to a keeper for me but that POI shift annoyed me enough I couldn't keep it.
 
cr5 said:
Mine did the same thing.
The biggest laugh is that some guys are going to tell you that the bipod is only to keep it out of the mud and you're not supposed to shoot from it.

The SA is a beautifully built rifle, I had the flat top target version of the classic green. It was pretty close to a keeper for me but that POI shift annoyed me enough I couldn't keep it.
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Yeah I could see it being annoying. Generally I am shooting just from the bipod, so it isn't a big deal for me. I thought it may be an issue in 3 gun, however at the distances I'm shooting, even a 3 moa difference is almost nothing. I will have to keep it in mind though when using it off hand as a tractor gun.

What are you shooting for a non-restricted 223 now? I'm assuming you replaced the Swiss with something similar?
 
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M10 said:
I cant tell if your being sarcastic but loading the bipod is a thing. If you dont load the bipod before the shot you will experience POI shift.
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It doesn't matter on a Swiss. Use the bipod, and your POI will be as shifty as a crack head looking for a fix.
Shoot off the mag and you'll have no issues whatsoever.
 
At what distance are you shooting?


You should try shooting off the mag i.e. monopod and works just a good.
 
SteelCap said:
At what distance are you shooting?


You should try shooting off the mag i.e. monopod and works just a good.
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Those groups were at 100m. Yeah, I could shoot off the mag, but the bipod is just the perfect height. The poi difference really doesn't bother me, I just needed to know exactly how much of a difference there was. It should be a pretty consistent difference each time, so I can account for it.
 
ianfroese said:
Yeah I could see it being annoying. Generally I am shooting just from the bipod, so it isn't a big deal for me. I thought it may be an issue in 3 gun, however at the distances I'm shooting, even a 3 moa difference is almost nothing. I will have to keep it in mind though when using it off hand as a tractor gun.

What are you shooting for a non-restricted 223 now? I'm assuming you replaced the Swiss with something similar?
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Non restricted ACR with 223 and 300BLK kits and I also have an AR180B-2. I've owned almost every non restricted we can have and those two are my favorite. I am also a big fan of the HK SL8-4, especially when it has the HERA lower like my second one did.

The SA is a really nice rifle and I loved everything about it except for it being so finicky with how you support it. If I shot from bipod it would shoot high compared to shooting off the magazine. I am definitely not a fan of shooting off the magazine, especially since it locks in on the back of the mag which would put excessive force on the magazine catch during recoil. I've never heard of this becoming a problem but I don't like doing it so I went to supporting it just in front of the magazine when on the bench and I removed the bipod. Not an ideal solution but all that flex in the rifle got to be very annoying.

ianfroese said:
Those groups were at 100m. Yeah, I could shoot off the mag, but the bipod is just the perfect height. The poi difference really doesn't bother me, I just needed to know exactly how much of a difference there was. It should be a pretty consistent difference each time, so I can account for it.
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The problem is that it isn't consistent, It all depends how much weight you put on the rifle. If you hold lightly and just sit behind the rifle to absorb the recoil the shift is less than if you lean into it a little or if you pull down on the rifle a little to control the jump for a faster second shot.

The part I don't understand is why there is so much POI shift. My non free floated AR doesn't shift that much (maybe a small amount but nothing really noticeable) and my AR-180B-2 doesn't shift up like that. I would expect the the AR-180 to shift similarly since the construction is very similar.
 
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cr5 said:
I am definitely not a fan of shooting off the magazine, especially since it locks in on the back of the mag which would put excessive force on the magazine catch during recoil. I've never heard of this becoming a problem but I don't like doing it so I went to supporting it just in front of the magazine when on the bench and I removed the bipod. Not an ideal solution but all that flex in the rifle got to be very annoying.
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Those magazines have a rim all the way around where they lock in which butts up against the bottom of the mag well. When downward force is applied this rim makes solid contact all the way around the magazine, you can do pushups with that rifle the mag design is that solid.

Also there is very little recoil as it is fairly heavy and has a long gas piston and small bolt carrier to absorb it, our C7's push harder. You are never going to break the magazine catch paddle shooting off the mag it is a non issue.

Also the bipod is not the greatest and yes many do remove it.

No bipods.
er_g03_07.jpg


No Bipod.
ewr09_g04_11.jpg
 
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The bipod is connected to the handguard which hooks on the gas block.

You can easily do it to a C7 too, by holding the handguard at the far end to make a 8 MOA shift.

That's why people are holding to the magwells because their rifles do not have free floated barrels.
 
J996 said:
Those magazines have a rim all the way around where they lock in which butts up against the bottom of the mag well. When downward force is applied this rim makes solid contact all the way around the magazine, you can do pushups with that rifle the mag design is that solid.

Also there is very little recoil as it is fairly heavy and has a long gas piston and small bolt carrier to absorb it, our C7's push harder. You are never going to break the magazine catch paddle shooting off the mag it is a non issue.

Also the bipod is not the greatest and yes many do remove it.
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As I said, I've never heard of it becoming a problem, I just personally don't like shooting off of the magazine with any rifle regardless of design.
I used to own one and know exactly what you mean when you say the solid design. I couldn't find one piece anywhere on the rifle that looked to me like it would ever fail or wear out. They are built like tanks, I just wish there was less flex at the barrel/receiver connection. My classic green was almost a keeper for me, I really enjoyed it except for the POI shift.


greentips said:
The bipod is connected to the handguard which hooks on the gas block.

You can easily do it to a C7 too, by holding the handguard at the far end to make a 8 MOA shift.

That's why people are holding to the magwells because their rifles do not have free floated barrels.
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I'm sure you could flex an AR enough to induce an 8 moa POI shift but probably not from simply resting it on the bipod with little more than the weight of the rifle and a 5 round magazine. My SA would flex enough that I was getting 4-5 moa shift upward when shooting from the bipod compared to supporting it at the magwell.
 
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