Swiss Arms rifles being examined for reclassification?

[Rebel Rouser]

So teh RCMP actually recommended something to HELP us and the Conservatives ignored it?

Wow.

#### them.

It's easier said then done. The only way the Conservative Government could have done it, is by passing a new law. That would create a #### storm on Parliament Hill. The Liberals and NDP would have a field day with this. Not to mention they would just throw us under the bus...

 

[blaxsun]

And I say again. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE GRANDFATHERED INTO SOME STUPID 12.WHATEVER CLASS? I like shooting my rifles. I don't want to own something I can't take out and enjoy. The only reason I spent over $3000 on this rifle was the non restricted designation. Even if they made it restricted I would sell it. I love the rifle but if I can only play with it at the range I'll just take one of my AR's.

Exactly. $3,000 paperweight that you can continue to own is still a $3,000 paperweight... Glad you're enjoying the 300BLK.

 

[Jay]

And I say again. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE GRANDFATHERED INTO SOME STUPID 12.WHATEVER CLASS? I like shooting my rifles. I don't want to own something I can't take out and enjoy. The only reason I spent over $3000 on this rifle was the non restricted designation.

Well said!!! I would not want a paperweight either!!!

Cheers
Jay

 

[Recce21]

The law is fairly clear on converted autos, and we can't exactly fault them for doing their job when we literally dump examples in their lap and say "Here, deal with this." In fact, one could argue that importing firearms that obviously deviated from the specifications provided to the RCMP upon where the FRT was approved (T97, BD38, Swiss Arms) led to this mess in the first place.

The SAN has always been a grey area, and the prevailing opinion has always been to let sleeping dogs lie. The question begs to be asked why someone thought it would be a good idea to stir the hornet's nest. There is only one party responsible for this fiasco, and there was nothing honorable with the way they went about it.

JR has sure boned the Canadian Firearms community HUGE here. The stupidity of the whole thing and the way he did it is beyond words.

And I say again. WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO BE GRANDFATHERED INTO SOME STUPID 12.WHATEVER CLASS? I like shooting my rifles. I don't want to own something I can't take out and enjoy. The only reason I spent over $3000 on this rifle was the non restricted designation. Even if they made it restricted I would sell it. I love the rifle but if I can only play with it at the range I'll just take one of my AR's.

Exactly. No one wants to be friggin grandfathered. Might as well own a dewat if you can't shoot it. I would guess most SAN owners have $4,000+ invested in their rifles, mags, accessories etc and that is a pretty expensive conversation piece for the safe. Compensation is sadly a better option than grandfathering which is the most depressing thing I can think of right now.

 

[250rg]

Why would the Liberals have a field day with this? 12 years ago they were the government when all this started. Also we the Canadian gun community has to do is mention there is close to a million full auto sig 550's in people closets in swizterland, The 550 is the perfect gun to argue with the anti's with swiss gun culture is one the anti's are terrified it hasn't been vilified in the media like the american...
people with half a brain know swizterland is one of the best countries on earth. Harper and Toews hopefully get on board with this...

 

[ztunelover]

I believe they must be destroyed by law.

Do they document it? They can always claim destruction and leave it at that.

 

[stickhunter]

Exactly. No one wants to be friggin grandfathered. Might as well own a dewat if you can't shoot it. I would guess most SAN owners have $4,000+ invested in their rifles, mags, accessories etc and that is a pretty expensive conversation piece for the safe. Compensation is sadly a better option than grandfathering which is the most depressing thing I can think of right now.

Ditto. As far as I know, compensation is at the discretion of the government, and with the projected cost based on import records, I'm not sure what kind of appetite the gov't will have to dole out the cash. The BD38 memo that was posted elsewhere suggested that a new 12.x class was possible --- I hope the government won't see this as a cost-effective option. If the Swiss Arms rifles do end up being prohibited, we all better be ready and willing to send in another batch of letters demanding full compensation.

I'm incensed by what's gone on over the last few years with reclassification. Mistakes were made in the original drafting of the Firearms Act and in its implementation, and law abiding firearms owners are shouldering the brunt of the costs. So much for efficient and sensible governance.

 

[mikethebike]

So the moral of this story is, if you buy a semi auto rifle of any configuration at some point in time the RCMP might reclassify your firearm as prohibited? How the hell am I supposed to know my rifle comes from a converted automatic configuration?

I own a cz 858, they use automatic vz 58 in the czech reserves, it could well have come from one of their stockpiles, I don't know, I'm not an expert in military firearms. So now what am I supposed to do? Track down my firearm with CZ to make sure it was never originally as an automatic rifle?

I bought this rifle from a dealer, even during the time when we had to register them, and now I just don't know what to do with this thing.

 

[ztunelover]

So the moral of this story is, if you buy a semi auto rifle of any configuration at some point in time the RCMP might reclassify your firearm as prohibited? How the hell am I supposed to know my rifle comes from a converted automatic configuration?

I own a cz 858, they use automatic vz 58 in the czech reserves, it could well have come from one of their stockpiles, I don't know, I'm not an expert in military firearms. So now what am I supposed to do? Track down my firearm with CZ to make sure it was never originally as an automatic rifle?

I bought this rifle from a dealer, even during the time when we had to register them, and now I just don't know what to do with this thing.

I am prepared to buy it off your hands for $400. No worries then.

 

[Not Long]

JR has sure boned the Canadian Firearms community HUGE here. The stupidity of the whole thing and the way he did it is beyond words.

I'm wondering whether or not the guy has put a massive legal target on his forehead with his handling of the entire SAN issue, initial distributorship, etc. to date given these internet threads alone, if not criminally then civilly? It might also be interpreted in a way such that the RCMP may have essentially been lied to from the get go enabling hundreds of prohibited firearms into civilian hands a la the lineage technicality? Let's all face it here... Look at pictures of a SIG540 and a SIG550 and compare them to Black Specials, Classic Greens, etc. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon...

 

[250rg]

Has TSE made it to Switzerland yet?

 

[stickhunter]

I bought this rifle from a dealer, even during the time when we had to register them, and now I just don't know what to do with this thing.

Sun News quoted the RCMP as stating that a case could be made for the prohibition of the Vz58. Start writing to the politicians now and voice your concerns over what is going on; then ask your fellow firearms owners and concerned citizens who value freedom and a stop to the waste of taxpayer dollars to do the same.

 

[evolture]

12-5 sucks. I don't want a $3000 paper weight either.

 

[stickhunter]

Look at pictures of a SIG540 and a SIG550 and compare them to Black Specials, Classic Greens, etc. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon...

Yes, when you take off the rose coloured glasses, it's hard to dispute the first impression. So if this first impression is true, why did so many people allow themselves to be fooled? If it was wishful thinking and the thought that once classified, always classified, we've all learned a lesson.

I asked earlier in this thread for any technical differences that help differentiate the Classic Green from the SG 550, and which are shared with the SG 540 --- I don't believe there've been any replies. I did a bit of my own research and found some parts diagrams and disassembly instructions for the SG 540 --- from those alone it is evident that the gas system of the Classic Green is more similar, if not identical, in appearance and function to the SG 550 than the SG 540. I haven't found enough information or detailed pictures to differentiate the bolts or other upper receiver components.

I'll also add that if TSE was the original driver of the Classic Green specifications, and Swiss Arms simply delivered what they'd been asked to deliver, then the recent events re: the CA receiver debacle have convinced me that TSE's grasp of the technical details of the SG 540/550 platforms is tenuous and should not have been relied upon.

 

[250rg]

540 root, 550 limb, pe90 another limb share the same root. I think it comes down to semantics. The design had to start from the 540 plans and not the 550 even if the 550 and pe90 share traits its where the designer started from. maybe?

 

[mikethebike]

Sun News quoted the RCMP as stating that a case could be made for the prohibition of the Vz58. Start writing to the politicians now and voice your concerns over what is going on; then ask your fellow firearms owners and concerned citizens who value freedom and a stop to the waste of taxpayer dollars to do the same.

I just don't like being made a fool of, I bought this rifle cause I wanted something reliable in semi auto that was non restricted, otherwise I would have bought a restricted core15 for 500 bucks more. If I had known this would happen I would have never bought it. It just seems like somebody should be responsible and accountable for this whole cluster fack.

For many if not all cz 858 owners, the appeal is that the rifle is non-restricted!

 

[stickhunter]

The design had to start from the 540 plans and not the 550

Can you provide a basis for this claim? I don't think it can be based on the SG 540/550 timeline, unless the Classic Green had been on the drawing boards prior to 1983:

In February 1983, the decision to adopt the SG 541 was publicly announced (the designation of the rifle was changed in October of the following year to SG 550,

If the Classic Green was developed shortly before its import 12 years ago, then what would be the rationale to base the design off the SG 540 and not the SG 550? It would make sense if the Classic Green had initially been developed for the Canadian market, but this would surprise me (although I don't know any details about the origin of the Classic Green).

 

[iamcanadianeh]

Instead of complaining here, contact your MP, Vic Toews and the PM. Contacting Gary B., Candice H, Cheryl G. wouldn't hurt either.
Write to them, follow up with a phone call.

Join the CSSA and NFA if you have not already done so.
Make a donation above and beyond the membership.

Absolutely. I would also add as a long term strategy to bring out new shooters and support them getting involved with the sport. There's strength in numbers, and it makes the sport a heck of a lot more enjoyable too.

 

[250rg]

no I have no basis for my claims, trying to understand how the variant process works, I think that is how the lab works.
seems like it all can be saved by Order in Council.

 

[Not Long]

So if this first impression is true, why did so many people allow themselves to be fooled?

Personally I didn't even consider technicalities as any potential problem given the purpose-made S/A rifles that had been allowed and classified as NR by the RCMP for sale that have always been NR or R (for Carbines and CQBs) since I have been involved in the hobby. Surely the authorities have assessed these rifles and allowed them for life-long ownership and enjoyment after reviewing specs, lineage of purpose-built design, etc. Well, how things change. I just see them as works of art, joys to shoot and highly desirable for many reasons.

Needless to say reading what's gone-on in here for a few days has opened my eyes to the truth about why this even became an issue lately, has been an issue from the get go realistically (cloaked by inaccurate information and reporting to acquire FRT#s) and it's all absolutely astounding to me really. I only wish I knew about all of this 5 months ago.