Swiss Classic Green or Tavor?

Siggy Stardust

Siggy Stardust

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With all the political uncertainty going on here, I figured I'd better hurry up and make a purchase that I've been contemplating for months. Only problem is, I can't seem to make a decision... So far this is what I've gathered from different threads here on CGN. And before anyone goes stating the obvious (hehe) I can only afford one.

Prices are about the same.

Classic Green
- EATS brass and I'd prefer handloading.
- extremely reliable
- mixed reviews on accuracy
- expensive mags/parts/accessories
- smooth trigger

Tavor
- bullpup design is well balanced and easy to shoot offhand
- heard rumours of slam-firing problems associated with firing pin/mechanism
- I heard "accurate" but how does it compare to the Swiss or ARs?
- I've heard very reliable as well. Anyone had any problems?
- Takes AR mags. BONUS!
- Trigger? I've fired an XCR and thought the trigger was garbage. Is it more like the Swiss or the XCR?

Any insights, opinions or advice would be very much appreciated! Then I'll place an order and get me some sleep...
 
Have both and love both...but for different reasons.
If I had to own one, it would be the Swiss Arms...no question.
It is such a sophisticated, smooth piece....everyone should be so lucky as to own one. Yeah, the mags are specific...it is hard on brass, but it can still be reloaded...is definitely more accurate than the Tavor, and the trigger is miles better.
The Tavor has the 'cool' factor going for it....the slam fire issue does make ownership a little more arduous...using AR mags is a plus...the trigger sucks a**( made better by disconnecting a spring)....the Meprolight sight blows (I managed to find one with a Picatinny rail...much better).
The offhand handling is marginally better...more personal preference than anything....
Parts/service support is probably better with the Swiss Arms.....

Again....having, and loving, both, if I had to have one...Swiss Arms.
 
Swiss Arms.

I have fired both the TAVOR and the Swiss Arms Classic Green Rifle and Carbine.

The TAVOR is an excellent rifle, but a few hiccups showed up during training for the owner.

1). The bolt catch release likes to snag up in the sling from positions where the bottom of the buttstock comes close to something. The sling attachment likes to sneak into the gap and when you change mags it'll snag up and won't release the bolt either with the cocking handle or the catch.

2). The Meprolight sight washes out in bright sunlight and becomes basically useless on a sunny day where you are firing in the direction of the sun up to about 40 degrees azimuth.

3). If the rifle is operated by a lefty they have to either do it right handed or eat brass.

4). for the first few rounds each session you notice that you get a solid whiff of propellant gases.

The TAVOR did have several good features though.

1). The magazines were very well made and reliably fed the rifle.

2). The BUIS flip up easily and co-witness well in the Meprolight.

3). It is a non-restricted bullpup that is shorter than my S.A.C.G. Carbine for cryin' out loud.

4). The rifle is quite accurate.

The S.A.C.G. Series all have a great deal of commonality.

1). The rifle was designed by riflemen for riflemen. To take it down to full field strip (no trigger group disassembly) requires no tools what-so-ever (unless you count the operator ;)).

2). The short stroke gas piston system is amazingly reliable and clean. When you want to fire off a few hundred rounds in a sitting you will find no carbon beyond halfway down the piston tube. I have put over one thousand rounds down the pipe on this rifle and have yet to even hear anything remotely resembling trouble. When there is extensive fouling/ice fouling you merely have to switch the regulator over until the trouble clears up (I hear they tested this thing to something stoopid like -65 degrees C before they gave up). I suspect that one could go for mulitple sessions without having to worry about cleaning this series.

3). The balance of the rifle is very comfortable, even in the full length versions. When you pick one up and track with it as you walk it points naturally. The weight is more than an AR but you also enjoy much less recoil and the sights are a exceptional. I can run this thing as fast as most people with Eotechs on thier ARs.

4). The Magazines are proprietary, but you can clip them together. Imagine a world where we could have full cap magazines. You could put up to 90 rounds right on the rifle! Yeah, it'll be heavy, but not so much compared to the kitchen sink M-forgeries I have seen around. Even with our lawful limit of five rounds in the mag you put two or three mags together and you get lightning fast mag changes... I'm talking people thought I had an AR with the AR Pistol mags fast.

5). I have found that this rifle is very accurate. Even my short Carbine is very good. It will put the rounds where I want without quibbling. Is it more accurate than an AR? Heh, your guess is as good as mine. I seem to do a little better with the S.A.C.G. stuff though.

Siggy, if you're in Calgary, swing by The Shooting Edge and take a look at the carbines for yourself. You won't be dissappointed.
 
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If you're looking to do something quickly then your decision is already made, as the Tavor isn't in-stock at the moment from CanadaAmmo, and I haven't heard/seen a date for new stock. Or left handed bolts either. Hmmm....off to send an email perhaps...
 
Mixed reviews on accuracy of the swiss arms... Exactly how many reviews have you read? Also, the slam fire on the Tavor is not a rumour, but a confirmed problem having to do with it being designed for military ammo w/hard primers.

IMHO, the only advantage the Tavor has over the AR is the ability to take AR mags. But a big disadvantage is the sight.... A subjective advantage is it's "evil" bullpup look. And a temporary disadvantage to the Tavor is its non-availability.
 
Siggy Stardust said:
With all the political uncertainty going on here, I figured I'd better hurry up and make a purchase that I've been contemplating for months. Only problem is, I can't seem to make a decision... So far this is what I've gathered from different threads here on CGN. And before anyone goes stating the obvious (hehe) I can only afford one.

Prices are about the same.

Classic Green
- EATS brass and I'd prefer handloading.
- extremely reliable
- mixed reviews on accuracy
- expensive mags/parts/accessories
- smooth trigger

Tavor
- bullpup design is well balanced and easy to shoot offhand
- heard rumours of slam-firing problems associated with firing pin/mechanism
- I heard "accurate" but how does it compare to the Swiss or ARs?
- I've heard very reliable as well. Anyone had any problems?
- Takes AR mags. BONUS!
- Trigger? I've fired an XCR and thought the trigger was garbage. Is it more like the Swiss or the XCR?

Any insights, opinions or advice would be very much appreciated! Then I'll place an order and get me some sleep...
Click to expand...


Well I can't comment on the Tavor.. but the Swiss Arms doesn't eat brass. It puts a ding in them for sure, but it is still reloadable.

The accuracy issue only concerns regular commercial ammo. The rifle is finicky with the common stuff, because it was designed from the ground up to shoot the Swiss Ruag ammo. These rifles don't leave the Swiss Arms factory untill they can shoot 1.1 MOA -10 shots with Ruag at 300meters. I don't think that's much of an accuracy issue.
 
nickorette said:
Well I can't comment on the Tavor.. but the Swiss Arms doesn't eat brass. It puts a ding in them for sure, but it is still reloadable.

The accuracy issue only concerns regular commercial ammo. The rifle is finicky with the common stuff, because it was designed from the ground up to shoot the Swiss Ruag ammo. These rifles don't leave the Swiss Arms factory untill they can shoot 1.1 MOA -10 shots with Ruag at 300meters. I don't think that's much of an accuracy issue.
Click to expand...

So what is the best ammo to run through the SACG? I've seen guys at the range with 3 different brands of ammo and bullet weights just letting fly and not being too concerned with accuracy. When I asked one gent how he was doing as far as accuracy he said he wasn't even really "grouping" or keeping track. I suppose that $250 scope mount and $2200 Nightforce was just a big waste of time then... Are there any magic handloads out there that seem to work better than others, and what weight of bullet do these types prefer?
 
Swiss CG Fit and Finish?

Was in Calgary today and stopped by TSE to have a look at the Swiss Carbine. Something I found in handling the gun was that there seemed to be sloppiness or play between the forend and the receiver. I'm not sure if it was just the furniture that was loose or if the whole barrel wasn't quite completely in the receiver.

Has anyone else encountered this problem? Is this normal or a concern? I've had weapons before with this issue and it's caused all kind of problems. I trust the Swiss is very reliable, but was I handling a dud? I would just expect that for a $3,000 weapon that fit and finish should be nothing less that stellar...

Comments?
 
Sigs are not supertight. The handguards typically have some back and forth play, especially in the carbines. Much less so with the fullsize ones. Pop out the mag, #### the hammer and press near the rear sight, you'll also notice up and down and side to side play between the upper and lower receiver.

This is all normal with the SIG and doesn't affect accuracy or reliability.


Regarding SIG vs. Tavor. I owned the Tavor for all of a few weeks. After the first range session I sold it and bought a 14.3" Sig carbine to keep my 20" and 17.9" flattop Sig company.

It's much easier to completely strip the Sig and clean every nook and cranny, no screwdrivers needed. Not so with the Tavor. Also the rough trigger, crappy meprolight and the wonderful doubling that occured 4 times in 200 rounds convinced me to sell the Tavor pretty quickly.
 
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