SxS defense shotgun
- Thread starter Philthy1
- Start date
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
A single round of 9mm Gold Dot, versus a single round of 10 gauge Federal Premium 3 1/2 inch Magnum 00 buckshot. 18 pellets of Hevi Shot.
If two opponents see each other suddenly at 50 yards, and they both have only time to squeeze off one shot, each of them (a pistol vs a shotgun), who do you think has the higher probability of walking away unscazed?
this is not rocket science, its just basic physics
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
Those nifty speed loaders part of the equation? Realistically from empty I would put my odds on the double loading and shooting faster, even without the speed loaders. With those speed loaders the double I would say is significantly faster.
I fail to see where your contrived scenario has any relavence to the subject at hand. HD situations are at very short range distances within the confines of a home. 50 yard HD shots simply don't take place.
Your choice of ammo is no doubt a great field load for hunting purposes but it's a very unlikely choice for HD for many different reasons. There's no practical basis of comparisson between it and the 9mm ammo you've chosen.
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My vote would also be for the double with the speed loaders. 2 rounds loaded and fired VS one in the chamber, one into the tube, fire, pump, fire. If your talking 4 rounds, I still think the double with 2 speed loaders would be quicker. Loading a tube fed isnt fast... even when your good at it.
If your talking a short gun, the benefit of the double with speed loaders gets even more interesting as the round count gets higher. My short pump gun holds 1 in the chamber and 4 in the tube. So 6 rounds would require one in the chamber, 4 in the tube than another one in the chamber. thats 3 loading steps. The double would be 3 loading steps as well...
Id like to see someone time it for real. I think the only thing that slows the double down is opening action and removing the shells. Ejectors would be faster for sure.
If your talking a short gun, the benefit of the double with speed loaders gets even more interesting as the round count gets higher. My short pump gun holds 1 in the chamber and 4 in the tube. So 6 rounds would require one in the chamber, 4 in the tube than another one in the chamber. thats 3 loading steps. The double would be 3 loading steps as well...
Id like to see someone time it for real. I think the only thing that slows the double down is opening action and removing the shells. Ejectors would be faster for sure.
Choosing to load the magazine is going to make the pump uncompetitive.
However if its all port loading, I think its pretty much a wash.
IMO, speedloaders or not, having to take the SxS off the shoulder and close it makes up for having to cup a shell into the port and pump.
There must be a reason why most of the top cowboy action shooters choose to use a 1897 instead of a double?
That's even if they have to start the stage with the gun empty.
The debate is still on regarding a double versus a pump but both suit me fine as I am a believer in the Len Deighton school of thought:
- Location
- Somewhere on the Hudson Bay Coast
This is an interesting discussion. The pros and cons between a pump and a SXS seem to have unnecessarily become a point of conjecture, since the disadvantages of either system can be mostly made up for with training. I like the idea of a pump shotgun for defensive purposes, but I don't see how anyone can say that its difficult to load a SXS while under the pressure of stress, but not the magazine of a pump. That doesn't make sense. Anyone who can manage to stuff 5 rounds into the tube of a pump, can certainly get 2 into a SXS. The shooter who has trained to a level of competence can load his gun, whatever it happens to be, while the person who thinks he's armed simply because he has a shotgun standing in the corner, is not competent, and he discovers loading that gun is a complex problem, when he's lost manual dexterity because he's frightened.
Many, perhaps most of us, know that you can drop a round into the open port of a side ejecting pump gun, push the slide forward, and the gun is then loaded, and ready to put into action, if something happens while you're loading the magazine. That's a nice advantage. What happens though, if you drop that round in backwards? If you don't train, tell me it can't happen. If you dump a box of shells on the bed, then in a panic grab shells to load the gun, tell me it can't happen, particularly if your attention is directed towards the threat. It'll take valuable time to first understand the reason the action won't close, then to pull the slide back far enough to clear the round, and finally shake it out. By contrast, a shell won't go into a SXS backwards, your mistake will be immediately realized, and it only takes a moment to fix; you could even simply drop the round, pick up another, and load it. Again, I'm a pump gun fan, but I'm not blind to the advantages of other actions.
A point against the pump gun became apparent in the assessment of the FBI's infamous Miami shootout. If your arm is injured by incoming fire, you might lose the ability to cycle that pump gun effectively; all of a sudden, a SXS looks pretty attractive, as does a semiauto.
Many, perhaps most of us, know that you can drop a round into the open port of a side ejecting pump gun, push the slide forward, and the gun is then loaded, and ready to put into action, if something happens while you're loading the magazine. That's a nice advantage. What happens though, if you drop that round in backwards? If you don't train, tell me it can't happen. If you dump a box of shells on the bed, then in a panic grab shells to load the gun, tell me it can't happen, particularly if your attention is directed towards the threat. It'll take valuable time to first understand the reason the action won't close, then to pull the slide back far enough to clear the round, and finally shake it out. By contrast, a shell won't go into a SXS backwards, your mistake will be immediately realized, and it only takes a moment to fix; you could even simply drop the round, pick up another, and load it. Again, I'm a pump gun fan, but I'm not blind to the advantages of other actions.
A point against the pump gun became apparent in the assessment of the FBI's infamous Miami shootout. If your arm is injured by incoming fire, you might lose the ability to cycle that pump gun effectively; all of a sudden, a SXS looks pretty attractive, as does a semiauto.
Boomer makes some excellent points and the real take-away message ought to be: train with a firearm - train to a high level of competence. In a career going back to the early 80's I've seen a real evolution of training; from standing on a line and shooting at targets as though one had all day to weak hand shooting, emergency reloads, stoppages and time pressure and see that those added stressors seriously degrade user competence with both long arms and handguns. With a shotty I recommend buying some dummy rounds and doing some of the things outlined by Boomer - do it against the clock, using weak side etc etc.
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Latest police shooting with a satisfactory ending in Cold Lake.
Two officers reply to a violent domestic in an apartment building.
A known drug dealer.
Drug dealer shot at the officers wounding the first officer with his handgun.
Second officer shot back with a shotgun at close range, striking his face.
End of shootout.
