sxs for upland ? (bss sporter 20 or....)

Canvasback:

Sorry if you've detailed elsewhere but what do you shoot through those, all handloads or specific brands from factory?
 
twoshots, I don't hand-load. I should as it would give me way more options but I just haven't got around to it. I buy Kent Gamebore for the most part. Relatively low pressures. 2 1/2 inch shells. I wish we could get RST or Polywad up here but neither will do what's necessary to export from the US. What is required is advance planning. I never expect to walk into any store and find what I need. I special order cases from Kent Canada through retailers who will do that for me. Right now I have enough of both 12 and 16 shells to see me through the 2015 hunting season. That of course would change if I decided to spend five or six days at the range. A day or two at the range is like a season of upland.

I would probably be hand-loading if I spent more time at skeet or SC but when I consider the actual number of shells used each season hunting (not including waterfowl for which I use different guns and shells) it has been easy to procrastinate. LOL

Brian, just saw your post. LOL Just wanted to brighten your day. The English Gun #### thread over at DG forum got me thinking we all need to see more "aspirational" photos. Haha!
 
twoshots said:
Thanks for all of the input so far. I would be totally fine with patiently waiting for the right upland respectfully used. I have been researching what to look for in a used sxs and would like to have something by fall but will wait a season if necessary. I would like something totally reliable and smooth handling if not fancy, worthy of passing on to the next generation.

eta: wow, thanks for taking the time to post those pics. They are beauties! I'm totally fine with a light 12g if that opens up more prospects. My mk54 is fine for the big stuff
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Google "Chuck Hawks affordable side-by-side shotguns". I know there are varied opinions on Chuck, but I feel he got it right in this article. A gun that I would add to Chuck's list is the BRNO sidelock, which seems to be more common in Canada than in the U.S. Canadian Tire used to carry them and they seem fairly common at gun shows and at Tradex. If one is OK with the BRNO's "continental" styling, they are a true sidelock, yet affordable, well made and reliable. Probably the only reason I don't own one is because I'm a lefty and every BRNO I've seen comes with a cheek-piece for a right-hander.
 
ninepointer, I agree with you (and with Chuck). I'm only trying to point out that throughout the market there are many, many great guns that get overlooked because they are older and the name on the gun is unfamiliar to most of us. Whatever your budget, $600?, $1000?, $2000? or more, there is 110 years worth of world wide gun production to choose from with amazing quality for very little money. My Lovena is a great example. Hand made and with the exception of the wood, (it's nice but not exhibition), almost Best Gun quality and I paid so little for it it's almost embarrassing. Why? Who the hell knows what a Lovena is? Took me a while to figure it out.

My last new gun was a Citori 16 I bought in 2004. I will likely never buy a new gun again. And given that the Golden Age of SxS quality was roughly 1900 through 1939, most of mine end up being from that time frame.
 
canvasback said:
ninepointer, I agree with you (and with Chuck). I'm only trying to point out that throughout the market there are many, many great guns that get overlooked because they are older and the name on the gun is unfamiliar to most of us. Whatever your budget, $600?, $1000?, $2000? or more, there is 110 years worth of world wide gun production to choose from with amazing quality for very little money. My Lovena is a great example. Hand made and with the exception of the wood, (it's nice but not exhibition), almost Best Gun quality and I paid so little for it it's almost embarrassing. Why? Who the hell knows what a Lovena is? Took me a while to figure it out.

My last new gun was a Citori 16 I bought in 2004. I will likely never buy a new gun again. And given that the Golden Age of SxS quality was roughly 1900 through 1939, most of mine end up being from that time frame.
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No worries Canvasback, I certainly didn't mean to come off as countering your comments. I agree with you 100%. My comments are only limited to under $1000 "sleeper" doubles because that's the extent of my first-hand knowledge and experience in owning, using and buying/selling such guns. Your earlier post will help me in regard to the next double that is on my wish-list.
 
Ninepointer, I know you weren't. I was poorly trying to both agree with you and expand on my earlier post.

My friend Gunsaholic is way more familiar with the under $1000 market than I am, mostly because he pays much more attention to it than I. But he's as capable or more than me when it comes to assessing the merits of any gun. We all have our own little corners we focus on. My point was only whether it's $500 or $5000, the used market has some incredible values when we start to look at the guns themselves rather than just the name or reputation on the gun.

I don't know why I'm writing any of this. Who needs more people going after the same guns I want? LOL!
 
Ninepointer, you are correct. The Brno doubles are great value for the quality as most can be bought for around the $500.00 mark, except for 16 gauge if you can find one. I have two 12 gauges and one 16 gauge. They feature chopper lump barrels, hidden third fastener, intercepting sears, plus they are a true sidelock that were all hand fit. For some reason I hang onto these. However, if I have a few extra "gun dollars" kicking around, for me the hunt begins for a vintage english SxS to add to the collection. (Well okay, I'm a sucker for many vintage doubles, the older the better). But if I was in the mood to spend around $2000.00, I would have some slim, superb handling vintage english double finding its way to me.
Enough of all this talk. I gotta go hug a gun!!
 
26" is kind of long for upland game. That shotgun, in the stated condition, isn't worth $1500 though. Gagnon's is listing a 12 ga at $999.99. One of 'em in 2011, in excellent condition with the original box, sold on liveauctionworld.com for $1200US plus the fees. $1300 with an odd butt plate, at Precision Arms.
 
sunray said:
26" is kind of long for upland game. That shotgun, in the stated condition, isn't worth $1500 though. Gagnon's is listing a 12 ga at $999.99. One of 'em in 2011, in excellent condition with the original box, sold on liveauctionworld.com for $1200US plus the fees. $1300 with an odd butt plate, at Precision Arms.
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I don't think one would find or want anything too much shorter, even in an upland double. Most upland configurations seem to measure 26", some 25". Having said that, I do hunt woodcock with a 24" 20 ga., but I would have preferred that the previous owner hadn't had a smith chop it down from its original 25". In those instances when I've been too tangled up to properly swing a gun, I don't think it would have made a difference what the barrel length was.
 
sunray said:
26" is kind of long for upland game.
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Hmmm, I don't know about that. 26" may be about average for upland but it depends on the upland. It's certainly not long. Are we talking ruffed grouse or wild Dakota pheasants?

Most of my "upland" guns are 27" to 29" guns. Only 26" is a Citori 16 gauge. I hunt Ruffies in Ontario and sharptail and Huns out west. My favorite ruffed grouse gun is a J & W Tolley 12 gauge with a single 29" barrel. At 5 pounds, its as light and quick as a gun can be and the longer barrels smooth out whatever swing I need. IMHO the need for shorter barrels in the grouse woods is vastly overstated. And I sure don't want 25" barrels when I'm hunting the open land of Saskatchewan or my home province of Manitoba.
 
26 would be about right for where I plan to use it. I wouldn't go any shorter and I won't cut a sxs ever. I really would like a straight grip but a 1/2 pistol would be ok too.
 
My favourite double has 28" barrels, and I find it just about perfect. I have another with 30", and though it's noticeably heavier because of the straight flat rib, I've actually done my best shooting with it. I've never found the longer barrels to be a real handicap, but I'm fairly tall with longish arms. Short barrels come in and out of vogue, but they seem stubby to me, and don't point as well.

If it were my money I'd look for a good quality English box lock. Hang around the gunshows, handle some guns and learn to recognize quality. There were dozens of virtually unheard of English gunmakers that produced excellent qaulity guns, and these unkowns tend to be a little more affordable than "name" guns. Twenty bores tend to command a premium, mainly because far fewer were made, and 12-bores will be the most common.
 
canvasback said:
Not trying to get you to spend more than you need to but if what you want is a gun for upland and your budget is $2000, I'd be looking for a Fox Sterlingworth in 16 or 20. The 20 will cost more.

The gun will be older than what has been discussed so far but a small bore Fox is in a different league than what has been discussed. I have 2 16 gauge Foxes. You'll have to wait and watch for a good one but they show up.
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I had the same thought! Buddy of mine had an AH Fox 20 ga. Sterlingworth grade , 26 IC//M. It was SAWEET!! I am not a SXS shooter but I would be if I had that Fox!
 
As 9.3Mauser says above, you might want to look for a good quality English box-lock. A good one can be had in the $1000-ish price range. Go to several gun shows and handle all of them you can. Get a feel for them, read some books and learn about them.
A good book to begin with is: Vintage Guns for the Modern Shot by Diggory Hadoke published in 2007, so it is still current. I got my copy on Amazon.com
If you do get a British gun, watch out for 2.5" chambers. Many of the older ones have shorter chambers. It is possible to find 2.5" ammunition here in Canada (made by Gamebore in the UK), but it is a bit expensive.
 
Many good points raised in the preceding.

I've owned both the Browning BSS and Ithaca SKB in 20 ga. The SKB (mine was a 200E) seemed a little trimmer & livelier, however both were good reliable doubles.

Having used a pile of doubles in the uplands over the years, my first inclination is to go for a light, well balanced 28" with straight (or English) grip with double triggers.
Next in line is the Prince of Wales or half or semi pistol grip. The full pistol grip, beavertail forend and single trigger, whether selective or not, is in last place.

I would never cut a double either, but hesitate only a little in having chamber or choke work done.

I sold a BSS 26" - 20 ga. in what I'd call very good condition not all that long ago for $1250. Not a mark or ding on it and perfect bores, however it had the original
Browning plastic finish on it removed... and was redone quite nicely in Tru-oil and the checkering pointed-up.

In it's place I bought a double in equally nice condition, a 12 gauge 28" Union Armerra (forerunner of Grulla) 206E boxlock ejector with sideclips & double triggers for $ 1000
which fit like a glove and I shoot much better than with the Browning. I had the mod/full chokes reamed to .007" & .015" ... about Skeet & Light Mod. Works very well on
grouse & woodcock with 1oz. of 8's and does nicely for preserve pheasants & huns with 1-1/8 oz. of 6's.

I think your offered BSS at $1500 is a bit rich ... your first inclinitation at $950 would be lots ... and $ 800 would be even better for the condition mentioned.
And, as others have mentioned, if you're not in a big hurry, your $ 2000 budget should be able to turn up something really nice for you.
 
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