SXS guys...pics up!

Wrong Way

Wrong Way

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Hi guys. I know there are more than a few SXS gurus on here, I'd like to get some info if I could. I'm going through my FIL's guns prepping an EE ad, and I've been putting this one off until last, as I have NO clue about it.....that, and it's COVERED with freakin 30 yr old white grease :mad:

Anyway, it's a 12 ga exposed hammer gun, it's marked: "united arms co ltd. liege (Belgium)" along the top mid-rib, and "columbia" along the rib close to the breech. It also has "Made in Belgium" marked on the LH side barrel.

All im wondering is if this is a common gun, and if there is somehwere a guy with a 19.6k connnection :)redface:) could search for more info. If you know the gun and have a rough idea of worth, that would be great too. (Bores seem great, bluing looks good (under the grease) stock is marked but no cracks/chips

Thanks very much for any info.

WW
 
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Heres the pics...any more info needed please ask :)

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wrong way, that looks to me like a fairly typical Belgian guild gun, kinda neat but no real collector value. If in good mechanical condition and if the proof marks allow modern 2-3/4" ammo it is valued as a shooter. I'd guess $150-$250 range
 
I have one just like it. Mine still has a fair bit of case colours on it I have shot it a ton with win and rem target loads. The action is tight as a vault. Mine has a fair bit of cast off in the stock. Keep it for what you will get for it, it will make a fun pheasant gun.
 
Longwalker said:
wrong way, that looks to me like a fairly typical Belgian guild gun, kinda neat but no real collector value. If in good mechanical condition and if the proof marks allow modern 2-3/4" ammo it is valued as a shooter. I'd guess $150-$250 range
Click to expand...

That's exactly what it is. Without doing a search, it looks like a hardware store gun. The Belgians made millions of them that bore the trade mark of any seller who was willing to pay for the dies and place a bulk order. High probability that it has 2 1/2" chambers and is proofed for black powder. Have a look at the belgian proof marks - they're posted all over the internet. You can compare with those on the gun and find out if it's been proofed for smokeless, or just for black powder.
 
The script EL is provisional black powder proof.
The ELG under the crown is definitive black powder proof.
12-70 in a circle is 12ga 2-3/4 (hard to read, if its 12-65 that's a 2-1/2" chamber)

A few aren't clear enough for me to see. Look for a nitro proof mark, which is a "lion rampant" over SCH, EC or PV. If you can't find one, its likely not proofed for smokeless.
 
Wrong Way said:
Thanks VERY much for the info! One more question (curiousity)
It's marked 12-65 in the circle...so that means 2 1/2" correct? Is it strange that both 2 3/4" and 3" shells will chamber in it?

I could see the 2 3/4 going...but 3's?

WW
Click to expand...

12-65 is 2 1/2" don't try anything else... It looks to be a BP gun only.
 
Not strange at all. Remember, the chamber needs to be long enough to hold the shell AFTER the crimp has been opened.

No different than putting a 3" shell in a 2-3/4" chamber, and just as disastrous if the chamber pressure rises too much with only a partially opened crimp as the shot and wad moves through it. At my PAL course, the instructor had a pump shotgun with the receiver blown in two from 3" shells being shot through it.
 
Wrong Way said:
Thanks VERY much for the info! One more question (curiousity)
It's marked 12-65 in the circle...so that means 2 1/2" correct? Is it strange that both 2 3/4" and 3" shells will chamber in it?

I could see the 2 3/4 going...but 3's?

WW
Click to expand...

The 2 3/4" will fit for sure because the chamber length refers to the length of the shell with the crimp open. It shouldn't accept 3" shells, unless the crimp is jamming right into the forcing cone.

There are 2 other possibilities:

- the forcing cone was opened up by someone planning to use 2 3/4" shells, or
- the chamber was properly lengthened with the same goal in mind.

Even if the chamber was lengthened or the cone honed, it is definitely proofed for black powder. Unless you can find a nitro proof, it would be decidedly unwise to fire even a 2 1/2" smokeless shell through it, unless those shells were specifically designed as slow burning, low pressure nitro equivalent to black powder. Forget about 2 3/4 or 3" - those would all be full modern standard pressure nitro shells, or even magnums. Too high a risk of damage and/or injury there.

Black powder shells in 2 1/2" are still available, but REALLY hard to find. Firing any shotgun that's more than 70 years old, even with the ammo it was intended for, should only be attempted if you have a sound understanding of the construction of these old guns and a good eye for the warning signs. An example of what I'm talking about lies between the top rib and the bottom rib, that hold the barrels together and regulate their points of aim. Improper storage, cleaning, or handling of a double gun can lead to serious corrosion between the ribs, where it can't be seen. Unless you know how to "listen" for the damage, or are lucky enough to see the corrosion coming through to the inside of the barrels, you could be detonating a pipe bomb right in front of your face.

I don't mean to be alarmist. Many of these guns can be fired safely. I do it all the time, myself. Just take your time to know what you are dealing with and, for your own sake, fire the gun remotely with a string before shooting with it.
 
Very interesting the 18.1 mm bore (0.713"). Does that mean anything with regard to the type of wad/shotcup that should be used? Felt only or would modern shotcups be okay?
 
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