SxS Nutz - Valuation Question

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I'm trying to help a friend arrive at a reasonable valuation for his 12 gauge SxS. He is considering selling it to finance the purchase of a 16 gauge.

The gun in question is a circa 1905 W & C Scott boxlock ejector called The Reliance, their top grade boxlock. 30" barrels and with all original finishes. It is as close to 100% CC as I can imagine. Now comes the hard part.

It's relatively easy to establish a price in the US. My research suggests a Scott The Reliance (or any first quality Birmingham boxlock) in this condition should sell in the $3500 to $4000 range down there. However, there are three factors that affect that price.

The first is that we are in Canada and there is always some kind of discount to US pricing. The second is that despite the great original finishes on the gun, there is a small amount of rust freckling on the exterior of the barrels near the muzzle. Easily dealt with by re-bluing the barrels but it's there. And finally and most significantly, stock has been cut and a pad added, I'm guessing in the 1960's. Current length of the LOP to end of wood is 12 3/4 inches and it is a straight cut on the wood. Right now with the pad it is LOP 13 7/8. Pad is hideous. Here are some pics. All input welcome.







 
James, as we both know, prices for these vintage guns are typically quite a bit lower in Canada. That, coupled with how much the stock has been shortened, will definately affect value here. As you mentioned, the barrels are an easy enough fix but you are still looking at a few dollars to have them refinished properly. If I were buying, I think I would have a price in mind of no more than $1500.00 tops and hopefully a bit less. You are aware of what restocking cost should you go that route (if you want it done properly), plus that is what would need to be done if one was trying to realize it's full value down the road. So when you figure the cost of a restock and rebluing, plus say the $1500.00 purchase price, you will already have full value or more of what it would sell for in Canada. And I know it would bug you if it wasn't put back to condition properly. Now if the stock wasn't cut, thats a whole different value. But, this is just my opinion and evaluation. One is free to say I am out to lunch if they so desire.
On the other hand if one isn't concerned at all with value versus cost and just wants a nice, quality vintage english gun as a shooter with no intention of doing anything to it, then the value becomes what and how badly ones wants a vintage shooter.

By the way, it's a very nice looking gun and I know they are quite nice handling/pointing guns. Love the case colors.
 
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It's tough to value a gun without seeing it in person. The pictures look nice but what they don't tell me is whether the gun is off the face, what the gun was proofed for, stock cast and drop, ejector timing, trigger pulls, chokes, gun's weight, the wall thickness, whether the chambers have been lengthened, condition of the screws and just how much "freckling" there is at the muzzle. These are all things I check when looking at an older sxs.

It's too bad about the stock. I'd also wonder from the pics whether there isn't some oil contamination at the head.

Assuming everything else was okay and the stock and the rust on the barrel were the only issues I'd put this gun in the $1,500-$1,700 range maybe a little more if there's an original maker's case with it.
 
If the owner is planning on selling, then there is no point getting work done to it first. Nick Makinson quoted me $450 to reblack the barrels on my Scott, plus another $450 for the furniture. But if you get that done it won't increase the value by $900.

The proper way to fix the stock is to have a wood spacer fitted to the butt. This is the way it would originally have been done in England. Either a buttplate (heelplate if you're British) can be fitted, or the butt just left with bare wood and checkered or scored. Again, this is not cheap, but the overall condition of the wood seems sound, so I would not opt for a restocking job. Or you could just find someone really short to sell it to.

It looks like an extractor gun to me ( I'd bet money on it) which doesn't help the value. It would likely have 2 1/2" chambers unless they've been lengthened, and a trip to the gunsmith is the only way to be sure. Looks to be proved for 1 1/8 oz, and proof marks are correct for the period, meaning it hasn't been re-proved at any point in it's life. Colours are very nice but I would not rate them at 100%. The rest is mechanical details that can't be determined without having the gun in hand, as claybuster mentioned.

You might squeak $2000 out of it if you're patient and stubborn, but the buyer would have to factor in the cost of the restoration. There doesn't seem to be a great demand anymore for these lovely English SxS's, so the $15-1700 estimate is probably more realistic.
 
Guns, you and I have talked about this issue many times so I know where you are coming from.

Claybuster, those are all the things I consider as well when looking at a gun. I shot the gun last weekend, a bunch. It is solid and all original. It has original 2 3/4 inch chambers proofed for 1 1/4 oz loads. I didn't have any measuring tools with me (on an island in Georgian Bay) and if he gets serious about selling it, I will ensure that is done. But I am betting it's all original inside the barrels.

When I say small amount of freckling, I mean small. Gunsaholic knows I'm pretty picky about the finish on my guns. When I say the only thing wrong with the gun is the freckling and the stock, then to the best of my knowledge, that's it (save for what might be discovered taking it apart). I'm not trying to juice up value through non disclosure. It's just having spent several hours with the gun, I am confident about it's condition....the bad, which I have described here and the good, which I didn't say much about except to say it was good.

Mauser is right, it's an extractor gun, which I would rather have anyway. And his estimate for refinishing the barrels and the stock is on the money. I also know that the $900 would be almost completely wasted if done with the intent of raising the sold price. Mauser, when in hand, if it's not 100% CC, i don't know what is. It has as much colour, evenly spread across the receiver as my Fox receiver does now, fresh from a redo by one of the best CCH guys in Canada. Might be the lighting in my photos.

My own estimate was pegging it at $1500. I'm interested to see you three are coming to a similar number. The guy is a friend and whether I end up buying it or he sells it somewhere else, what I really wanted to was to give him a fair and realistic price estimate.

I appreciate your input guys. Thanks. Anyone else want to comment, please join in.
 
The colours may well look better first hand. The escutcheon for the forend latch looks grey, as well as the forend iron. On my 1906 Scott boxlock the colours on the inside of the forend iron, not normally exposed to daylight, are very strong and vibrant. The colour on the action of mine I would rate at 60-70%. I have pics of this gun up on the SxS thread. By comparing the colour on the inside with that on the action you can get an idea of how much fading has taken place. How does the cover plate look?
 
From the photos alone, that's a serious piece of British workmanship.

I've been privileged to handle and shoot a few W.& C. Scott's, albeit they were Premiers & Monte Carlo B sidelocks.
Personally, I wouldn't hesitate to restock & have the barrels reblacked if all else was A. O-K. As is, the short stock
and nasty recoil pad while not a deal-breaker, makes me think in the vicinity of $ 2000 as a project piece for
restocking to my own dimensions. I'd likely go a leather covered pad rather than checkered butt, but that's just me.

The case colours are very nice. I really like the fact that it's a 30" NE ... and would have a knowledgeable 'smith check
barrel thickness all the way down both tubes, and give it a very thorough exam to ensure the ribs are still frimly attached.
Likewise check to see what sort of choke constriction there is ... and can you live with what's there. With sideclips and
2-3/4" proofed for 1-1/4, wouldn't surprise me a bit if it was an early waterfowling piece or even put together as a pigeon gun.

There seems to be a lot of value there, but as noted, it's severely impacted by the short stock (and perhaps stock dimensions as well).
In very good original condition, with decent stock dimensions in a maker's case, $ 5000 isn't out to lunch for such a quality piece.
For a couple of grand with another couple for stocking & reblacking, you would have a real beauty, IMHO !
 
I think every serious bird/rabbit man should , at least once in his life, be able to either HOLD or FIELD one of these beauties..................... That is one seriously beautiful piece of art. Nothing less than world-class art. Man-o-man, I wish I could even just personally inspect something that nice. Just to see the intracacies of all that work. Case coloring second to none. A level of Engraving that probably hasn't been done on the Earth for at least 50 years...................
 
beretta boy said:
There seems to be a lot of value there, but as noted, it's severely impacted by the short stock (and perhaps stock dimensions as well).
In very good original condition, with decent stock dimensions in a maker's case, $ 5000 isn't out to lunch for such a quality piece.
For a couple of grand with another couple for stocking & reblacking, you would have a real beauty, IMHO !
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Just my opinion but I think even with decent stock dimentions one would wait a very long time to realize $5000.00 in this country. Maybe in the US but even that would be tops there.
 
I've base my comments on value as to what a new AyA No. 2, Arrietta or Beretta SxS might set you back.

These golden oldies just don't grow on trees, and one in very good condition, with shootable stock dimensions
( or close enough to be professionallyhot oil bent to suit ) is easily worth the same money as a comparable
condition highe-grade Parker, A.H. Fox, L.. Smith or Lefever. Come to think of it, you'd be really hard pressed
to find a Parker CHE for examle, with those kind of case colours for $ 5k, here or below the border.
 
You are correct. These golden oldies certainly aren't on every corner and I'm glad I own a few vintage English doubles.I also totally agree that these guns compare to Parkers, Foxes etc. and is likely superior to newer guns you could buy in the same price range. I also believe that an unaltered example should be around a $4000.00 to$5000.00 gun. The problem comes when one tries to sell a 110 year old English double in this country for $5000.00. It's a very small market. It would be easier to realize that value if it was a sidelock gun. However, it only takes one buyer and a person is not forced to sell only in this country so who knows.
But back to the actual example in this thread. Unfortunately it has an issue that greatly impacts value and thus it will not come close to 4K in this country.
 
Gunsaholic ... I agree totally, that's why I say I'm thinking of it as a $2000 project gun ... as is. I would gladly put another $ 2k. with it to have it
restocked & the barells reblacked ... provided it's on face, tight and the barrels retain sufficient thickness with chokes I could live with.

I'd try to arrange to pattern it first for choke percentage.

Like most older Brits and American classics, it likely has too much drop anyways, so I wouldn't hesitate to restock it. It's already been buggered
for any "collector value" (perceived or real) ... and is just crying for a tasteful rehab to restore it to it's former glory !
 
Yeah, one never knows how one of these old classics will fit until one tries it. Might suit one person just fine but not the next. While not a W&C Scott, I have a Webley & Scott from the same time period (1906) which, for my build, I find to be a great handling gun.
The gun in this thread is indeed a nice gun and would be a pleasure to own for the right price. I believe the action on it is tight and on face and most likely the barrels have not been tampered with. But a proper measurement of the bore and walls would answer that.
 
I've been involved in a few W&C Scott deals in the last little while, and I would have to agree with the others about $1,500.
A good friend just picked up a very nice hammer double from the States in far better shape that this one, and all in it was about $3,000.
It is cased but not with an original, the case is aftermarket from Jeff;s with the labels , but it is nitro proofed and as nice a hammer double 16 as one could hope to down a pheasant with!
The stock being cut is a killer, but if a person is looking for a nice little shooter, $1,500 would do it.
Cat
 
beretta boy said:
Gunsaholic ... I agree totally, that's why I say I'm thinking of it as a $2000 project gun ... as is. I would gladly put another $ 2k. with it to have it
restocked & the barells reblacked ... provided it's on face, tight and the barrels retain sufficient thickness with chokes I could live with.
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Reblacking alone would be $1000; I know two English trained smiths, and neither of them would consider restocking an old double for less than $2000, and $3000 would be more realistic.
 
9.3mauser said:
Reblacking alone would be $1000; I know two English trained smiths, and neither of them would consider restocking an old double for less than $2000, and $3000 would be more realistic.
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I've had 3 sets of damascus double barrels refinished by a professional who restores vintage guns. Cost was $400.00 to $500.00 per set depending on amount of prep work needed. Non damascus barrels are a bit less. Yes, restocking would be around $2000.00 give or take depending on wood selected.
 
The only way I could see a W&C Scott like the one shown getting to the $5,000 mark is if it were close to perfect with a maker's case. That would mean excellent condition plus, shootable dimensions and no alterations whatsoever.
 
gunsaholic said:
I've had 3 sets of damascus double barrels refinished by a professional who restores vintage guns. Cost was $400.00 to $500.00 per set depending on amount of prep work needed. Non damascus barrels are a bit less. Yes, restocking would be around $2000.00 give or take depending on wood selected.
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I was quoted $450 for the barrels, + $450 for the furniture by Nick Makinson, so yes, the barrels alone would be 4-500. But unless the furniture was immaculate, it wouldn't look right to do the barrels alone.
 
9.3mauser said:
I was quoted $450 for the barrels, + $450 for the furniture by Nick Makinson, so yes, the barrels alone would be 4-500. But unless the furniture was immaculate, it wouldn't look right to do the barrels alone.
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Very true. It ain't cheap to have a vintage/antique gun restored properly. And that's what a lot of people don't realize when selling one that needs work. The prices asked are often nearly what the gun is worth if it was restored. Just because it might be old doesn't mean it's worth a bundle. Any work needed has to be figured into the purchase price.
 
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