T/C Thompson Centre / Investarms Hawken Rifle problems

[pointfive0]

I'm thinking we should have a list of common problems with these Investarms / Euroarms / Thomson Center/ Lyman Hawken style muzzledloaders, since I seem to have had every possible problem with my gun. I googled "thompson center problem" and found a whole bunch of problems. Here's a new one as of today:

For some reason my .50 cal Investarms (same as T/C) Hawkens type muzzleloader is not fitting properly. Every time I take the barrel off to clean it, it becomes more and more difficult to reassemble the barrel hook on the tang (in other words I can't assemble the barrel on the stock easily).

Today was the breaking point. The barrel will just not sit properly anymore. The breech hook doesn't want to grab right. I am thinking the entire fit and finish on these things is off because of the foreign wood used. I believe it's some type of mahogany. I'm thinking because it was made in Italy, it was not acclimatized in this area, and the wood is moving around a bit, causing the hole spacing / cutouts to be off. (This may no longer be a problem as the new Thompson Center guns are advertised as being "solid american walnut")

This may explain why the hammer on my gun is misaligned, causing misfires, which was never a problem for my father 30 years ago when he bought it new.

I took the breech plug tang off completely for inspection, don't see any damage, only wear, which I'm guessing is normal. I connected the barrel to the tang and tried assembling them on the stock as a pair, but I have to force the barrel down lightly to be able to insert the wedge pin. I'm certainly not deforming the barrel, but there IS tension holding it down. I have no idea what to do next. Has anyone ever built a CVA Hawken kit gun like this? If you're out there, you can probably help me.

This gun has been babied. It is near MINT condition, with no signs of wear, barely a scratch on the thing. Always kept clean, oiled, and stored horizontally. I've changed nipples three or four times now with no improvement. 2 caps are fired off every time I go out. Gun is cleaned with alcohol prior to first shot, and cleaned with alcohol between each shot, followed by dry patches. Using 70gr FFg with .490 round ball, .010 patch, and grouping was all over the map, and all of a sudden with the use of alcohol I've brought it down to 6" groups at 50 yards, a dramatic improvement!

Problems I still have with gun:

-Percussion caps are never consistent (musket caps on order!)
-the hammer is off centre causing missfires and hangfires
-the powder doesn't always get down into flash channel even with 4-5 good raps, further causing missfires (maybe drill it out one size bigger?)
-I've had to offset the rear sight about 1/8" to the right to get any kind of accuracy
-brass pieces on loading rod have unglued themselves on both ends (thread and loading end) solution: cross drill 0.060" hole through brass and wood and insert solid brass nail and peen end (home-made rivet)

I unscrewed the breech plug today to get a good look at it, and get some real light in the barrel, and everything is flawless and clean as a whistle. Channels and holes are very clean.

I totally dismantled the lock to see if there was any way to adjust it and apparently there is not. I'm about to wrap this thing around a tree.

 

[Skinny 1950]

I feel your pain...if you want some real grief try BP revolvers.

It is possible that the wood is changing dimensions or there is crap in the stock that needs to be cleaned out,

My advice is to take your gun (Rifle) to a knarly old Black Powder shooter and let them teach you... and straighten out your gun.

Resign yourself to becoming a gunsmith if you want to shoot old style firearms, or if you are rich, prepare to spent a lot of money.

I have ordered 1000 #11 caps which I hope solves a real problem that I have with revolvers...there are numerous threads on this topic.

 

[snowshoe]

I feel your pain...if you want some real grief try BP revolvers.

It is possible that the wood is changing dimensions or there is crap in the stock that needs to be cleaned out,

My advice is to take your gun (Rifle) to a knarly old Black Powder shooter and let them teach you... and straighten out your gun.

Resign yourself to becoming a gunsmith if you want to shoot old style firearms, or if you are rich, prepare to spent a lot of money.

I have ordered 1000 #11 caps which I hope solves a real problem that I have with revolvers...there are numerous threads on this topic.

I agree with this. You will need to make that barrel sit down nicely in the stock with no binding. My wife's Traditions used to not fire now and then until I lined up the lock to the nipple. All I did was put a sliver of wood on one side of the lock to tip it out a bit. My Lyman Trade rifle's barrel needed a bit of wood taken off in the tang area for a proper fit also. I use nothing but #11 caps.

 

[10x]

snip
Problems I still have with gun:

-Percussion caps are never consistent (musket caps on order!)
-the hammer is off centre causing missfires and hangfires
-the powder doesn't always get down into flash channel even with 4-5 good raps, further causing missfires (maybe drill it out one size bigger?)
-I've had to offset the rear sight about 1/8" to the right to get any kind of accuracy
snip.

If the ham is "off centre" it may have been bent. hammers can be bent to fit properly if they are heated. Bent hammers can cause misfires and hangfires as the hammer face does not hit the nipple properly. Check the hammer face as well. It should hit the nipple square and should be smooth. Many hammers get damage on the face by dry firing. A dented and rippled hammer face or the face hitting the nipple unevenly can cause problems as well.

If you go to musket caps you are going to have to change to a musket cap nipple. Musket caps are much larger than #11 caps.

If you are getting powder in the flash hole that can cause hangfires.
Ideally the powder stays in the chamber and the flash hole stays clear of powder. That can also cause a misfire by causing fouling in the flash hole that reduces the diameter. You should not be "rapping" the ball or bullet. It should be pushed down firmly on the powder.

Drilling out the nipple may NOT be the best solution as an oversized hole in the nipple will cause a blast of hot gasses to hit the hammer face. I have seen several "self cocking" percussion guns that were a result of a drilled out nipple.

For the barrel not fitting properly - forcing the barrel down lightly to make the locking tang fit is not an issue - that is the way they are supposed to go.

As for the "foreign wood". These stocks were made of maple and walnut. The stock moving should not be an issue unless you are soaking it down during cleaning. Even American walnut will "move" when it gets wet.

 

[10x]

I feel your pain...if you want some real grief try BP revolvers.

It is possible that the wood is changing dimensions or there is crap in the stock that needs to be cleaned out,

My advice is to take your gun (Rifle) to a knarly old Black Powder shooter and let them teach you... and straighten out your gun.

Resign yourself to becoming a gunsmith if you want to shoot old style firearms, or if you are rich, prepare to spent a lot of money.

I have ordered 1000 #11 caps which I hope solves a real problem that I have with revolvers...there are numerous threads on this topic.

I have purchased a number of BP revolvers from guys who had problems shooting them. When you get tired of them PM me....

 

[pointfive0]

If the ham is "off centre" it may have been bent. hammers can be bent to fit properly if they are heated. Bent hammers can cause misfires and hangfires as the hammer face does not hit the nipple properly. Check the hammer face as well. It should hit the nipple square and should be smooth. Many hammers get damage on the face by dry firing. A dented and rippled hammer face or the face hitting the nipple unevenly can cause problems as well.

If you go to musket caps you are going to have to change to a musket cap nipple. Musket caps are much larger than #11 caps.

If you are getting powder in the flash hole that can cause hangfires.
Ideally the powder stays in the chamber and the flash hole stays clear of powder. That can also cause a misfire by causing fouling in the flash hole that reduces the diameter. You should not be "rapping" the ball or bullet. It should be pushed down firmly on the powder.

Drilling out the nipple may NOT be the best solution as an oversized hole in the nipple will cause a blast of hot gasses to hit the hammer face. I have seen several "self cocking" percussion guns that were a result of a drilled out nipple.

For the barrel not fitting properly - forcing the barrel down lightly to make the locking tang fit is not an issue - that is the way they are supposed to go.

As for the "foreign wood". These stocks were made of maple and walnut. The stock moving should not be an issue unless you are soaking it down during cleaning. Even American walnut will "move" when it gets wet.

The hammer is too far back, and the nipple sits forward on it - and I am certain it has not been bent - it would take quite a bit of force to bend it, such as a good whack or drop on the ground - and there are no indications of this as the gun has no damage to it. I think it has to do with the breech tang not being aligned properly, as this would push the barrel forward, causing the hammer to sit back.

I've purchased the musket nipple just waiting for the caps - I didn't want to purchase 500 so i ordered a smaller quantity to see if they would work first. I imagine the hammer alignment issue will have to be figured out first before that huge musket nipple goes on.

When I get misfires where the caps go off but the charge doesn't ignite, I remove the nipple and add powder through the threaded hole (is that the flash hole?) to make the charge go off. Are you saying that powder through that hole can actually be the cause of a misfire? I can understand what you are saying as there is often fowling directly under the nipple when I remove it. There is a ring of crud that I clear out whenever I remove the nipple to add powder.

I'm not rapping the projectiles, I'm rapping the barrel once I pour the powder in, to get it to go down the flash hole (or whatever that's called) through the breech plug. Should I not be doing this at all?

I'm thinking that it's not a good idea to have the barrel forced down so that it wants to "spring" back up. I have a friend who told me a story of how he used the wrap his sling tight around his forearm to stabilize his gun in standing position, and he always shot lower than when not wrapping the sling. I'm afraid this may happen, though a 15/16" barrel may not flex as much...?

The stock has always remained dry, never been in the rain or gotten wet during cleaning. I can assure you it is not walnut or maple. It looks just like all the foreign made cheap tables and chairs you find everywhere these days - Indonesian mahogany or similar wood.

Thanks for the replies folks!

 

[beefman]

I'm rapping the barrel once I pour the powder in, to get it to go down the flash hole (or whatever that's called) through the breech plug. Should I not be doing this at all?

What powder are you using?

I always tap the barrel to settle the powder charge.

 

[pointfive0]

What powder are you using?

I always tap the barrel to settle the powder charge.

Goex FFg.