T2 Garand - Part 1
- Thread starter Dyspnea
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OK, you make a valid point....
How about this, GT rents out the land where a shady street meat vendor has set up shop, someone buys a mystery sausage and loses 6 feet of intestines. GT knew they were shady from previous "food poisoning" reports but still doesn't care because they pay their rent on time....
In court, he'd be partially responsible, named in the suit at minimum....same with this situation if someone gets hurt shooting one of these piles of crap.
This is just an internet forum...it's the same as if said shady food vendor has an advert on an internet forum. No one forces you to buy the things from the vendors in the ads shown, and no site I have ever heard of was ever held liable to having a banner that led to a business acting a certain way. Not a lawyer, but I'd say you're losing focus of what CGN is -- an internet forum, nothing more.
Gun makers, and dealers are getting sued in the US everytime some ####### goes on a shooting spree. That's the equivalent of suing Ford because some drunk ####### ran over you with a Mustang.
If there is any association at all, no matter how remote you might think it is, it's going to court.
Alibaba got sued for selling counterfeit goods http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32781236
You don't think CGN could get sued for allowing Marstar to sell defective firearms on here if someone got injured?
CGN does not "allow" Marstar to sell their wares. CGN is not a distributor, or a maker of firearms. If you want to do something, contact the competition bureau and file a complaint. CGN sells advertising space and allows user feedback to forum vendors.
A lawyer would argue that the site gets paid by the vendor to advertise. The vendor does so to be able to sell his product. Why did the site if knowing there where problems with the product and knowing the vendor was still selling said product. The site still allowed the vendor advertising space.
Just saying, lawyers love this stuff. It makes everyone remotely involved to lawyer up, costs everyone money.
Just saying, lawyers love this stuff. It makes everyone remotely involved to lawyer up, costs everyone money.
OHH! I luvs analogies! Consider this whole debacle a crime, selling goods knowing full well they are hazardous/deadly to your health. Defendant makes cash which he uses to pay his bills. Those who accept the profits of crime are guilty of money laundering as well as profiting from a crime. Crown seizes all assets until everyone has their day in court.
QUOTE=johnone;12852378] Have you bothered to read the Marstar warranty, "not happy" return for a full refund ??
I hate to rain on your parade but the sales derived from CGN members would barely pay the wages for a couple of employees....
Not to say we do not appreciate the support of CGN members, but there is a whole othe world outside this forum
John[/QUOTE]
Oh but the forum is but a tiny fraction of their sales....
Do the rules vary between vendors and the EE? If I was to try and sell items that were not as advertised I would be chastised/punished/banned. The EE rules for us peons,
All items listed for sale [WTS] or trade [OfferTT] must include an accurate description of the item at the time it is listed for sale or trade. Members may consider the NRA grading system for “condition” when describing items for sale or trade in the EE.
Descriptions of all items must be factual. Items that have been altered from original factory condition or/and modified by any party other than the original factory must be disclosed. All pictures posted must be the original pictures of the items owned by the sellers.
I guess that if I was to pay to advertise I could say anything and fear no repercussions.
Hitzy, Like you I believe Marstar should refund all buyer costs on every one of those rifles. I have only seen two and both of them were unsafe and I suggested to the fellow that he send them back for a full refund on all expenses incurred by him and to definitely not shoot either of them.
After dealing with Marstar for years I am very surprised at them even allowing these firearms to be released to the public. I am also surprised they had the rifles assembled offshore and shipped to Canada as completed firearms. IMHO it would have been cost effective to have the parts shipped to Canada and have some of the excellent shops here do a proper assembly, if it was even possible with the parts he had, which looked to be pretty decent from the video. With phony acceptance and proof markings the litigation proceedings are going to be bankrupting at best for Marstar if they can be proven complicit. If someone gets hurt because of one of these rifles issues, Marstar will cease to exist. The rifles I saw were unsafe and one had indexing issues. I know they came that way because I was there when they came out of the box. I told the fellow to just put them back in the box as he received them, include a letter inside that he wasn't satisfied with the items and mark return to sender on the cartons. To bad he had to sign for the delivery because he had to pay to ship it back. He is asking for a full refund on all costs.
This isn't a good thing but lashing out at everybody even remotely associated with this isn't helping anything.
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That is 100% how I feel.
If I sold these rifles I would expect to be banned after a good tar and feathering.
I'm not sure what bothers me more about this situation, the fact that these rifles were clearly misrepresented, ore the fact that they are clearly unsafe to use.
Or maybe it's the fact that John argued and lashed out at anyone who had the sense to let him know.
Or maybe the fact that now his own "Iron Clad" warranty is BS.
It all stinks that's for sure.
I will not ever shop at marstar again. I know many many other people who don't even frequent these forums who have mentioned the same things.
Exactly! How can there be this completely obvious double standard??? Not only does this situation discredit marstar, it seems to call into question the integrity of CGN by allowing this garbage to continue.
My 2 bits....
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I'm going to go against the grain with you guys. Marstar will take the product back - you pay shipping and you get a refund. They are standing by the "Iron Clad Warranty". Sure you're out a few shipping shekels but it could be a lot worse. My gut is telling me that Marstar has been sold a bad bill of goods and didn't know they were passing it onto you.
Ive done business with Marstar for years and years and this is the first time I've seen anything like this from them. Yes John can be arrogant but truth be known people are always bloody crying the blues to him. No matter how you look at it this is Disapointing for sure. It's a great big turd sandwich and everyone has taken a big bite.
This thread was educational at one point but now it's gone mental.
I don't blame Marstar for no longer having coms on this thread. You guys are out for blood.
Take a time out and cool off dudes.
cooler minds will prevail
Ive done business with Marstar for years and years and this is the first time I've seen anything like this from them. Yes John can be arrogant but truth be known people are always bloody crying the blues to him. No matter how you look at it this is Disapointing for sure. It's a great big turd sandwich and everyone has taken a big bite.
This thread was educational at one point but now it's gone mental.
I don't blame Marstar for no longer having coms on this thread. You guys are out for blood.
Take a time out and cool off dudes.
cooler minds will prevail
I just read this entire thread front to back. I'm f**king appalled. I have been an occasional customer of Marstar for several years and have had no complaints with their service or products. Everyone can make mistakes, overlook things, etc. This however, is just disgusting. You sell a rifle with false advertising and lies, refuse to own up to it and then have the gall to engage in snarky, immature personal attacks in response to legitimate questions and concerns. When it was discovered the rifles were, at best, unsafe to shoot with ground off and welded lugs and loose barrels (seriously? I've never seen anything so patently unsafe from a so-called professional firearms dealer!), you don't bother to issue a recall or an apology or even so much as a reply saying you're looking into it. You just sit back and ignore everything. I was willing to give you some benefit of the doubt, from my own experiences, but come on... Screwing customers out of their shipping to return your misrepresented, dangerous and defective guns is the final spit in the face insult. Obviously they don't matter. It's absolutely unbelievable that any company considers this acceptable. Your silence, as they say, is deafening.
I'm now very glad I didn't jump on buying one of these. I do sincerely hope nobody is injured by these rifles!
With all that said I'll be very interested to see what CGN administration is going to do here. I see nothing has changed so far. Granted, Johnone has made no official reply or statement *though that in itself speaks volumes*. I hope the right thing is done. I'll just leave it at that.
By the way, it's one thing to be sold some crap without realizing initially, and quite another to keep passing said crap off on unsuspecting customers despite clear evidence and concerns/questions from several of the victims. I was as I said perfectly willing to overlook a lot and had this very same opinion; until it became obvious that Marstar had been lurking the thread and knew exactly what was going on but did and said nothing to rectify it. Speaking as a small business owner myself, when you get some bad stock, you apologize, pull the product, and start issuing refunds etc etc. Standard procedure for any company big or small. Compare that to what's gone on here...
I'm now very glad I didn't jump on buying one of these. I do sincerely hope nobody is injured by these rifles!
With all that said I'll be very interested to see what CGN administration is going to do here. I see nothing has changed so far. Granted, Johnone has made no official reply or statement *though that in itself speaks volumes*. I hope the right thing is done. I'll just leave it at that.
By the way, it's one thing to be sold some crap without realizing initially, and quite another to keep passing said crap off on unsuspecting customers despite clear evidence and concerns/questions from several of the victims. I was as I said perfectly willing to overlook a lot and had this very same opinion; until it became obvious that Marstar had been lurking the thread and knew exactly what was going on but did and said nothing to rectify it. Speaking as a small business owner myself, when you get some bad stock, you apologize, pull the product, and start issuing refunds etc etc. Standard procedure for any company big or small. Compare that to what's gone on here...
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I agree that people seem to be out for blood.
However, the anger is understandable. People dropped a lot of money on these rifles and they didn't get what was advertised. Not only were they not what they were advertised to be, but they were unsafe. I feel like if you are in this business you should check over this sort of goods before passing them on to the customer. It would have been pretty obvious to them that there were issues.
Now with all that, if they stand by their warranty and customers aren't out anything (because marstar was clearly in the wrong) then i could understand being miffed and feeling like they tried to scam you; i could understand losing confidence in the dealer and taking your business elsewhere.
What i can't understand is why there hasn't been a full recall on these rifles.
There are likely many people who do not come on CGN to read the latest gossip. They could be out there firing away not knowing that the next pull of the trigger could be tragic.
Marstar either
1) sold these rifles knowing full well the issues, they frequently mention their extensive experience and knowledge of firearms, which, if true, means they knew these rifles were not what they were advertising, and were unsafe to fire. If this is the case then you just can't trust them anymore.
2) sold these rifles not knowing the issues, in which case they didn't have any malicious intent, its just an honest mistake; however, if that is true it means they don't know their products as well as they claim to. Now that they have been made aware of the issues they should be going out of their way to make it right for the customers that are upset, just out of good business practice, and they should be going out of their way to make sure that no one is harmed by the defective rifles.
They say that their warranty is so awesome that if you are not pleased you can send it back for a full refund; that may be true... but what about those who don't know about it?
If i never came on CGN and wasn't SUPER into the technicalities of M1's then i probably would just assume that a reputable dealer sold me a firearm that was safe to fire...
Every order I have gotten from Marstar has always contained a paper declaring their money back guarantee, no questions asked. The fellow that received the two rifles I saw had the same paper with his invoice. He took them up on their offer. There is no reason for people not to know about the guarantee.
It's not that they don't know about the guarantee, they might not know about the dangerous flaws in the rifle
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