T97 vs Tavor Threads Merged

So finally got mine yesterday. It looks like all the others.

A few things I noticed.

1) The cocaine packets smuggled in mine were a bit odd (Yes I know it's desiccant anti moisture packages) . One was in the action and it took a few minutes to clean the crud out as I naturally racked the action not realizing it was there.

2) The mag isn't as bad as I was expecting. Don't get me wrong the black coating on it looks to be crap but... the magpul infringement anti tilt follower wasn't bad and the actual quality of the mag was ok. I noticed it has the last four of the serial number for the rifle stamped on it. So don't lose it!!! Oh and D&H mags work perfect just from dry fire manipulations. Last round hold open works and they drop free.

3) The trigger is a bit mushy and then let's go with a good start much like the Tavor and RFB. The trigger is light and pretty decent though. Lighter than the Tavor by a lot but not as crisp as the tavor or the RFB. RFB still has the better trigger so far.

4) There is a propriety rail in the charging handle already. I've seen a scope on a posting here that has a quick release system for this rail. As it sits down into the carry handle it provides an acceptable height for optics unlike the add on stuff which sits on top. We need to get access to scopes etc that can use that rail. Or at least some sort of adapter for it.

5) We definitely need a decent ambi mag release. The current one works but it's awkward and slow. Not intuitive at all.

6) The safety is ridiculous. The only positive is like the Tavor and Swiss Arms you can turn on the safety without having to charge the firearm. Still WTF were they thinking?

7) The rear sight sucks. The only good thing about it is you naturally have to go to the front sight. I should reserve judgement until I shoot it but, it's mediocre from what I can see and that's being generous. I like the rotating part much like other sights for the AR and the CX4 storm etc. But.... we'll see.

Points nice and I like the polymer molding on it. The metal work looks ok and has that course black finish on it like the mags. But it works as texture wise it matches in decent with the polymer. Fit/finish is decent on this firearm. Not exceptional but not bottom of the barrel either. It looks like a middle quality firearm.

I think the part that saddens me about this firearm is that it has the potential to have been a real winner. If they had gone with the G model safety from the start, made the mag release more like the Tavor or at least ambi so you could do quick mag changes along with a normal tactical mag change rather then the reach around thing then it would have been pretty slick. That and a lower G36 style rail or at least a rail system that was better designed inside the rail handle.

I consider this firearm the mini14 of Bullpup rifles. It will do everything but it's got a few strange things to it. This is really evident with the ergo problems when compared to modern firearms. I shudder to think what it must be like trying to fly one of the Chinese military's planes or tanks. Built in security there.

Does it compare to the Tavor? Not a chance. Not even close. Although again it could have if they didn't make some odd choices with it. It looks cool, handles nice and points well. The internals look solid. It's a cool rifle. I'm glad I bought one. But... the Tavor slays this rifle. I would go with a CZ858 for a military style rifle over the T97. I would be faster with the CZ858 along with better sights. The Tavor is a 21st century infantry rifle. The T97 is a 20th century bullpup with a few fixes. You can tell. Again I still like it and am glad I bought one. Then again I like bullpups and want to have most examples in my collection.

Those worried about reliability of this firearm. I wouldn't. The system looks solid. Based on all very tried and true systems.
 
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harbl_the_cat said:
I never said it was - it was. I said it was a REPLACEMENT for the M4 to overcome it's weaknesses - the most prominent being the sorter barrel length providing lower muzzle velocity than would otherwise be desired in a RIFLE. Even the name TAR indicates the Tavor is an assault rifle.

I speculate that the QBZ on the other hand is a rifle designed to address the issue of having a light, squad based weapon that differs in operation significantly from the standard issue rifle of their military. Really, the Tavor - T97 argument seems to be a comparison between, the AK and the M16. Both are assault rifles, but one is phenomenally simple to operate and maintain,cheap, reliable, and inaccurate while the other is much more complicated, expensive, requiring more maintenance, but arguably more accurate.

Likewise, it appears to be reflective of different modern military doctrine, whereby western allied states structure their squad/section based tactics around a specialist with a light support weapon capable of putting a high volume of fire with riflemen providing cover fire, the Chinese/Russian doctrine appears to have a more distributed across the squad/section - just compare the QBB to the Negev. A TAR21 operator with no training would probably have a lot of difficulty operating a Negev, whereas an operator trained in a QBZ could probably immediately be capable of operating a QBB (very much like an Ak and Rpk).

That lends itself to another point that I think is fascinating. I disagree with an assertion made that wars are won by will - they are won by logistics. The QBB and QBZ are supposedly designed to have the majority of parts interchanged - there is no way this is a coincidence - which to me suggests the QBZ was designed to be assault rifle AND a LMG. The strategic and tactical advantage this presents is pretty interesting. By my experience in the Canadian Army, one of the first lessons they teach you with during machine gun theory is if one of your section gunners goes down, you sling your rifle and get behind his gun - this is because our doctrine revolves around the majority of fire in a section coming from the gunners, not the riflemen. Now thinking operationally and logistically, if your in the middle of Kerplakistan and your Negev/M249/C9 goes down requiring a tech/replacement part to fix - your screwed if your packing a Tavor, M4, or C8. You can't even use the belt ammunition without delinking it.

Conversely, if your QBB or QBB gunner goes down, in an emergency you could in theory use the drum mag from the QBB in your QBZ or your QBZ mags in your QBB.

The thing is, both the Tavor and T97 are variants of military weapons. The cool part about them (at least to me) is analysis of there intended function and interpreting what that means operationally when shooting them.

Like I said though, I'm a believer that logistics win wars, so while I won't knock the Tavor looks like a neat gun, I'd rather have a cheap rifle with 6400 rounds of ammo than just a cool rifle - But I certainly won't knock anyone who believes differently.
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Your whole statement fell apart when you said the T97 is like the Ak47.
Saying the T97 is as reliable as the ak47...
 
A rotating bolt does not make it like the AK ;)

The AK shares in much in common with the Type 97 as it does the C9/M249 SAW or XCR
 
Ok, I feel lazy today, and really don't feel like reading every Love it/Hate it post in this and other threads, but one question is bugging me:

Why is the aperture consecutively larger as you increase in range? Shouldn't it be larger at close range, where fast target acquisition trumps the need for minute accuracy gains, and smaller at longer ranges, to allow greater precision at smaller silhouettes? Is this a mistake, or am I missing something? I just think of Lee Enfield peeps, where the battle sight is bigger than the flip up long range peep...
 
5440fight said:
Ok, I feel lazy today, and really don't feel like reading every Love it/Hate it post in this and other threads, but one question is bugging me:

Why is the aperture consecutively larger as you increase in range? Shouldn't it be larger at close range, where fast target acquisition trumps the need for minute accuracy gains, and smaller at longer ranges, to allow greater precision at smaller silhouettes? Is this a mistake, or am I missing something? I just think of Lee Enfield peeps, where the battle sight is bigger than the flip up long range peep...
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My troy sights are like that too, back sight aperture hole really small at long range, much larger at close range. It's like reversed on this T97, but whatever.
 
I like the Tavor better, it's super more tacticaller and stuff and the polymers are higher specs.
It makes me shoot better holes in paper at the range when I'm wearing every bit of tactical gear I could get my hands on.
I find when I really need to pretend to be a bad ass at the range and stare old people down from behind my really expensive sunglasses, nothing works for me better than the Tavor, plus I heard the Israeli commando super tactical ninja warriors use them so it has to be worth the money! It's a bit lighter too so I'm less out of breath from walking the 50 meters to my zombie targets. Still sweating profusely and completely spent but just a little less out of breath.

I'm just kidding I haven't shot either one yet :D But I'd buy the T97 because it's 1/3rd the price, I'm really cheap and it's a gun that shoots bullets in Canada which I would use as a citizen.

Retarded argument solved!!! :rockOn:
 
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Dsiwy said:
A rotating bolt does not make it like the AK ;)

The AK shares in much in common with the Type 97 as it does the C9/M249 SAW or XCR
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Fireball compared the rotating bolt to a Valmet which is a confirmed AK action. The bolt was almost identical. Same shape and function. Much more than just a rotating bolt being the similarity. The rest of the system is different which is why it's not an AK or AK variant. Different enough.

No the internal of the Type97 share more in common with the AK than a C9, m249 SAW or XCR. As does the Swiss Arms PE90 which is also an AK inspired design.
 
andrew3081 said:
Just because it has Ak47 alike parts, it does not automatically make the gun as reliable as AK47.
But time will tell if the T97 would be as reliable as Ak47.
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The Type97 is based off the military QBZ-95. It was first seen in Hong Kong outside china in 1997. 16 years it's been used to replace the Type88 (Short piston system) which was an improved upon rifle to replace their Type51 (AK 47 manufactured under licence) with the Chinese military. The internals seem to have taken it's inspiration from the AK along with a natural progression from the Type88. All older but very reliable designs.

I would frankly say the burden at this point should be to prove that it isn't as reliable as all indications show that it would be. From the simplicity to the design to it being a progression from the AK which you are holding as the holly grail here. This firearm is two generation of transition from that AK. It's a progression not a completely new design. Enough that it isn't the same rifle although it shares a heritage but isn't a variant.
 
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I should also add that the last shot hold open on the T97 doesn't seem to work when the safety is engaged. Works perfect with safety off but not when on. I tried it with different magazines and it seems to be consistent. So no precharging with an empty mag and the safety on. You have to have the safety off with an empty mag and then charge it. Safety then on and mag removed.
 
edwin-97a said:
Short stroke piston is different than a long stroke piston! are you ok?
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Yes Short stroke piston is different. I guess I just don't put as much stock into a different trigger pack and a change in the piston system when the bolt looks like it came out of an AK. They Type97 isn't a variant or AK it's different enough. But to say it's not based off that system is ridiculous. That doesn't mean it's an AK or it's a variant. But the action is the heart of the rifle. Long stroke, or short stroke it is a minor difference. It should also be noted that the Chinese military version has an AK style magazine with an AK style release system where you rock it in.

Type97 bolt vs Valmet 308 bolt (confirmed 308 AK action, the only non prohibited AK action in Canada)

2BE09779-9E51-4ACB-9A22-251394EFAA23-20289-00001CBFEB0893A3_zps5e956bd3.jpg
 
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edwin-97a said:
PWS AR-15's is more of AK type action, than type-95,97.
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Ummm the only thing AK with the PWS is the long stroke piston. The bolt is in fact regular AR15. You could use DI, or even a short stroke piston system to move that bolt. Same effect. Same bolt. Interestingly enough it's still an AR15 isn't it? Hmm wonder why? Maybe because the piston system isn't enough to differentiate it. You just killed your own argument with that example.
 
Travis Bickle said:
I like the Tavor better, it's super more tacticaller and stuff and the polymers are higher specs.
It makes me shoot better holes in paper at the range when I'm wearing every bit of tactical gear I could get my hands on.
I find when I really need to pretend to be a bad ass at the range and stare old people down from behind my really expensive sunglasses, nothing works for me better than the Tavor, plus I heard the Israeli commando super tactical ninja warriors use them so it has to be worth the money! It's a bit lighter too so I'm less out of breath from walking the 50 meters to my zombie targets. Still sweating profusely and completely spent but just a little less out of breath.

I'm just kidding I haven't shot either one yet :D But I'd buy the T97 because it's 1/3rd the price, I'm really cheap and it's a gun that shoots bullets in Canada which I would use as a citizen.

Retarded argument solved!!! :rockOn:
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^
This guy gets me.
 
Just got mine, I can't get the bolt to lock back for some reason, but I haven't read the manual yet. The LOP is really short, I feel like I could poke my eye out on the rear sight (probably not but it is close). Really short though. Love it so far!
 
driller212 said:
Just got mine, I can't get the bolt to lock back for some reason, but I haven't read the manual yet. The LOP is really short, I feel like I could poke my eye out on the rear sight (probably not but it is close). Really short though. Love it so far!
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Put safety to f then the bolt will lock back.
 
Epoxy7 said:
Ummm the only thing AK with the PWS is the long stroke piston. The bolt is in fact regular AR15. You could use DI, or even a short stroke piston system to move that bolt. Same effect. Same bolt. Interestingly enough it's still an AR15 isn't it? Hmm wonder why? Maybe because the piston system isn't enough to differentiate it. You just killed your own argument with that example.
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Yah! it is a Long Piston system, LIKE an AK. but NOT type 97 Short piston system like the VZ58. are you OK?
 
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