This type of thread has probably been done to death, but I can't remember it recently, aside from Kev's sticky. Anyhow, just wondering which of the "big three" battle optics were most popular with GunNutz and why? I'm referring to close quarters battle type ranges, with the occasional foray into longer shots at "targets of opportunity" out to 300-600yards using AR-15s, M4s, Swiss CQB, Carbines and similar classes of rifle. No long range sniping type optics! Think reddot and similar! :wink:
Tactical Optics for Fun & Competition
- Thread starter X-man
- Start date
sparrow said:
:lol:
ACOG is a general purpose sight, for CQB it requires better head placement, and some eyes/brain have a hard time working the BAC feature. I love my TA-11 of death. Aimpoint is easier and faster for CQB but less accurate for medium range.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Please alow me to stir the SH*T here a bit. I have never been a big fan of any of these systems. Probably just my lack of experiance with using them, but I beleive the Irons to do everything they do and often better. We need to work on Marksmanship....not gadgets....good old instinct shooting for in close.....well placed aimed shots reaching out. What happens when the little energizer bunny runs out of spark at a bad time? Guess I'm old school, But willing to be re-educated 
just an opinion
just an opinion
While I beleive irons should be learned first - I would NEVER advocate them on a combat weapon as a primary sighting method.
With irons you are required to focus on the front sight and sight in two planes - with a red dot CCO you focus on the target and put the dot on it and pull the trigger. Red Dots are visible in all light siutatiosn and can be used as occluded eye aiming systems. If the iron front post is covered in crap your screwed.
Any dynamic drills will be more accurate and faster with a CCO (all else beign equal).
All the noted Tier1 units are using a CCO - for the above reasons.
Batteries should be replaced before operations and all the decent CCO systems will last much longer on a set than the operator of the system will last w/o down time.
With irons you are required to focus on the front sight and sight in two planes - with a red dot CCO you focus on the target and put the dot on it and pull the trigger. Red Dots are visible in all light siutatiosn and can be used as occluded eye aiming systems. If the iron front post is covered in crap your screwed.
Any dynamic drills will be more accurate and faster with a CCO (all else beign equal).
All the noted Tier1 units are using a CCO - for the above reasons.
Batteries should be replaced before operations and all the decent CCO systems will last much longer on a set than the operator of the system will last w/o down time.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Kevin you put an end to that debate pretty quick....was hoping to stir the SH*T and get some funnies :lol: But in all honesty I use those sites to they are very quick and very accurate. I havent seen an Acog yet...are they worth the price?
With ACOG prices hit 1600+ in Canada IMHO - one is better served with going the Variable power "Combat" optic route for a few hundred more.
S&B Short Dot
Nightforce 1-4 (when its released)
USO SN-4
Leupold MR/T M2 1.5-5
HorusVision Talon 1-4
Trjicon Accupoint TR-21 (1-4)
Although you then need a decent mount too...
IF you could get an ACOG in the 1K range they are a good GP scope - but NOT a CQB item as BAC while good is NOT a 1X CCO.
S&B Short Dot
Nightforce 1-4 (when its released)
USO SN-4
Leupold MR/T M2 1.5-5
HorusVision Talon 1-4
Trjicon Accupoint TR-21 (1-4)
Although you then need a decent mount too...
IF you could get an ACOG in the 1K range they are a good GP scope - but NOT a CQB item as BAC while good is NOT a 1X CCO.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
can you go both eye's open when running all of those scopes? and which one would you say is the best bang for the buck. I had an aimpoint but my wife stole it and mounted it on her Brugger TP-9mm. So I need a replacement.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
She's a woman of expensive taste!! :lol: But her interest in the sport makes my spending money on it easier. :lol:
You can - however some have reticles that's illumination (the NF beta version, and the Leupold) are not always visible in sunlight requiring you to hope the black reticle is visible enough for your usage.
I have not played with the USO other than inside more of a handling sneak peek...
So I cant comment on it.
I am sold on the S&B - mainly since it replaced a TA31 AND an EOTECH 552 - which when you look at it - it was cheaper to go to that optic than the two it replaced and all in ONE. The only disadvantage that I have with the variables over a CCO inclose is the weak side shooting moving laterally it is awkard for me to keep my head in the sight (training issue) - The EOTECH allows for more freedom and varied geometry between the optic/weapon and the head/eyes.
I have not played with the USO other than inside more of a handling sneak peek...
So I cant comment on it.
I am sold on the S&B - mainly since it replaced a TA31 AND an EOTECH 552 - which when you look at it - it was cheaper to go to that optic than the two it replaced and all in ONE. The only disadvantage that I have with the variables over a CCO inclose is the weak side shooting moving laterally it is awkard for me to keep my head in the sight (training issue) - The EOTECH allows for more freedom and varied geometry between the optic/weapon and the head/eyes.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Kevin been researching your recomendations and all are excellent choices, but from what I found pricey. Im going to add one to your suggestion that I think would be an excellent choice.
the IOR 3-25 Tactical scope...an excellent rectical, solid glass and Picatiny mounts for mounting a flashlight or other accessories....Excellent Price. I believe Peter Dobson is the IOR Distributor in Canada and he is on this site. Not sure the Canadain price on this little unit but if anyone has tried it I would be interested in hearing your view on it.
Anything that is over 1.3 power at its lowest setting will cause some problems when using as a CCO. As well anything that is SECOND FOCAL PLANE will have some issues as well - either in the reticle pattern not subtending to the same ratios at different power settings or zero shift during different power settings.
I would NEVER mount anything to the scope (laser or flashflight) as the optic tends to make the weapon top heavy as it is - the light should be out near the end of the rail system perferably at 6 O'clock to minimise shadow (I typically run 3 O'clock, for I can't seem to get USASOC to sell me their "ganster" grip ) - and a laser if at all possible should be behind the front sight base to provide some impact protection.
I would NEVER mount anything to the scope (laser or flashflight) as the optic tends to make the weapon top heavy as it is - the light should be out near the end of the rail system perferably at 6 O'clock to minimise shadow (I typically run 3 O'clock, for I can't seem to get USASOC to sell me their "ganster" grip ) - and a laser if at all possible should be behind the front sight base to provide some impact protection.
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
Kevin... CCO is not a term Im familiar with, but assume it is the Canadian acronym for the American CQB. CCO wasn't used when I was in and if it was I dont recall it. Are we on the same page? I don't want anyone takeing my opinion here as Expert advice because it isn't. My opinions are based on what I believe or have been led to believe as true and in this type of Discusion if your "Ass is in the Grass" go with Kevin's views. I'm kinda making a point yet at the same time asking a question so don't take my view personaly. When I gear up a rifle for CCO/CQB my tactical thinking is more along the lines of how am I going to deal with that Bear/Wolf/Coyote hiding in my back bush trying to get at my pets or garbage.... If CCO/CQB comes to a hostile intruder......well my tactic would be to leave it to the wife and her TP-9mm and PMS....just kidding.
Ok to the meat of it. When your "Ass is in the Grass" you should have nothing but the best and if every penny of my Tax dollars went to the Canadian Military I would work more overtime....and I would love to have Kevins Suggested scopes.
That being said If I am Joe Blow out to Play silly bugger in the bush at the range I may be after a more budget minded scope.
I have to disagree with you on that point Kevin. some of the scope designs are made for the mounting of a flashlight/laser on the scope itself....as far as being top heavy...you may be right to a certain extent, but when you look at the IOR or the Leupold CQB with Tri-rail they are designed to keep the weight centered over the rifle. I personaly would prefer a Streamlight M3 mounted to the scope at the 3 O'clock, at 9 O'clock it would obstruct the view of left eye, at 12 O'clock to tall. As far as Lasers go I have never been a big fan of those. In a tactical envioroment where you play for real, Lasers that light up your target for quick aquisition also leave an arrow pointing to you for someone else to pick up on....Lasers point both ways, myself I would be very hesitant to use them. But in the back yard or range.....bring it on. The other thing I would make sure of in this type of scope is that you can comfortably use it with both eyes open to utilize your pereferal vision, when focused through a tube there is alot going on that you may miss. :|
This is all just an opinion and feel free to correct me, or re-educate me, no offence taken.
Ok to the meat of it. When your "Ass is in the Grass" you should have nothing but the best and if every penny of my Tax dollars went to the Canadian Military I would work more overtime....and I would love to have Kevins Suggested scopes.
That being said If I am Joe Blow out to Play silly bugger in the bush at the range I may be after a more budget minded scope.
I have to disagree with you on that point Kevin. some of the scope designs are made for the mounting of a flashlight/laser on the scope itself....as far as being top heavy...you may be right to a certain extent, but when you look at the IOR or the Leupold CQB with Tri-rail they are designed to keep the weight centered over the rifle. I personaly would prefer a Streamlight M3 mounted to the scope at the 3 O'clock, at 9 O'clock it would obstruct the view of left eye, at 12 O'clock to tall. As far as Lasers go I have never been a big fan of those. In a tactical envioroment where you play for real, Lasers that light up your target for quick aquisition also leave an arrow pointing to you for someone else to pick up on....Lasers point both ways, myself I would be very hesitant to use them. But in the back yard or range.....bring it on. The other thing I would make sure of in this type of scope is that you can comfortably use it with both eyes open to utilize your pereferal vision, when focused through a tube there is alot going on that you may miss.
:|This is all just an opinion and feel free to correct me, or re-educate me, no offence taken.
I had read that a light on the scope lets you keep the carbine lower behind cover / barricade. Makes sense from my La-z-boy - a lower-slung light, even at 3 O'clock on the barrel / handguard, would reflect a lot more light back on the shooter, causing all sorts of issues. Weight+balance would be a factor, but how much does an M3 weigh? Now, some of the Surefire 225+ lumen lights look heavy and bulky (think 'turbo head'), but that's no longer CQB.
KevinB said:
I guess you don`t care for the Ior Valdada 1-4 , http://www.valdada.com/vn/ior/03k
I don`t do any 'tactical' work with it but I really like its optics, never really figured out how the reticle is ranged tho, never got any info with it.
CCO = Close Combat Optics, at least that's how I figure it. :?
If your light is on the same plane as your barrel (at 3 o'clock) that's as low is the rifle can get. What good is using your cope behind cover if the barrel is also beind cover? Think about it.
