Does anyone know what criteria was used to change the classification of certain tactical shotguns such as the Alpha Arms 15SA and the Adler straight pull bolt action? As far and I can see with my eyes and common sense, they are not a variant of any of the named prohibs from the OIC?
Tactical Shotgun Prohibitions
- Thread starter bondjames80
- Start date
If the firearm shares design features, like literally having the same type of mechanism for bolt lockup for example, will give it "points" towards being another design.
I'm paraphrasing, because Smith sprinkled his Murray-Smith-Glutamate on top of (ignoring) patent and blueprint logic and rules.
By his logic all bolt actions could be traced to a k98 but ak47's are different than sks's. A modern AR is no different than a trials/experimental m16 or ar10, inaccurate and not suitable for hunting, whereas a Browning BAR created within a couple years of that design is somehow more appropriate firing the exact same round as an ar10
I'm paraphrasing, because Smith sprinkled his Murray-Smith-Glutamate on top of (ignoring) patent and blueprint logic and rules.
By his logic all bolt actions could be traced to a k98 but ak47's are different than sks's. A modern AR is no different than a trials/experimental m16 or ar10, inaccurate and not suitable for hunting, whereas a Browning BAR created within a couple years of that design is somehow more appropriate firing the exact same round as an ar10
steamy teabag
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Inside Carneys Reich
Poly and the CGC sent a list and pictures to the Libs and then Mike Sierra went to work.
Poly's letter to BB listing what they wanted on the OIC.
Montreal, May 11, 2020,
The Honorable Bill Blair
Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Government of Canada
Ottawa, Ontario K1A OK9
Subject: Recommendations concerning the ban on assault weapons and other measures being considered
Dear Minister,
First, we would like to thank and applaud your government for the regulations prohibiting some 1,500 types
of assault weapons currently in circulation. We are particularly pleased to finally see a ban on the gun used in
the École Polytechnique massacre, in addition to other weapons associated with mass shootings, including
those whose victims’ families are part of our group. Congratulations and thank you for this bold and
long-awaited step.
The purpose of this letter is to share our recommendations concerning these regulations as well as other
measures that were promised by your party in the last election. In summary, as part of the upcoming
legislative process and other governmental actions on gun control, we would like to recommend the
following:
A) ASSAULT WEAPONS
1) Implement a mandatory buy-back program for all assault weapons currently in circulation, as your
party explicitly promised in the last election. Given that the government recognizes the inherent
public safety risks associated with the availability of these types of weapons, it follows that each
weapon that remains in private hands constitutes a risk. (It should also be noted that most mass
shootings in Canada involved legally owned guns.) Moreover, in a scenario where a significant
proportion of assault weapons remain in private hands, it would be much easier for a subsequent
government to repeal the bans. In fact, some Conservative Party leadership candidates have already
pledged to repeal the measure and, to this end, the gun lobby is currently telling its members to
“KEEP YOUR GUNS” and be patient:
2
2) Ensure that the new prohibitions are embedded into law to complete the ban on assault weapons and
render it permanent. Fortunately, you have already stated your intention to do so. While the
regulations end all future acquisitions of existing assault-style weapons, they do not constitute a total
ban, as they do not include future models outside of the nine “principal models” that form the basis
of the regulations, in addition to two “characteristics,” namely, the thresholds on muzzle energy and
bore size. The approximately 1,500 firearms listed are in fact “variants” of these “principal models” or
those that exceed the new limits. Future variants of the nine “principal models” are also prohibited.
However, if a manufacturer produces an entirely new “principal model” that is not covered by the
criteria, it would be legal. In other words, the system will need to continue to play catch-up with gun
manufacturers who will persist with their attempts to circumvent the law and regulations.
Proceeding with regulations was the right thing to do in the current context, since it is the only way to
freeze the market without going through a lengthy legislative process. However, in our view, Ordersin-Council were always a temporary measure pending a permanent solution that necessarily entails a
reform of the classification system set out in the Criminal Code. This is what New Zealand did within
30 days of the Christchurch shootings, using broad permanent criteria (all centre-fire semi-automatics
other than .22 caliber rim-fire firearms and some other exceptions).
Lastly, embedding the bans into law renders an overall ban on assault weapons much less vulnerable
to future ideologically divergent governments, as regulations can easily be repealed by the next
minister, whereas amending the law requires a vote in the House of Commons and the Senate. Given
the Conservative Party’s past and current alignment with the gun lobby, we fear that the next
Conservative government would immediately repeal these regulations, as many leadership candidates
have already pledged to do, whether a minority or majority, and with or without public support. In
other words, changing the law is more democratic and more permanent, and we feel that the Liberal
Party has a mandate and the support to do so.
3) Complete the ban on assault weapons in the law to include many other guns not covered in the
regulations because of certain criteria unrelated to lethality, like weapons that are of ‟modern design”
or that are not “present in large volumes in the Canadian market”. Some of these include:
WK180-C: Very recent model that is likely
not yet widespread in Canada. This
“non-restricted” rifle (similar to a
“restricted” AR-15) was the subject of a
feature article in the Globe and Mail
highlighting the tactics of gun
manufacturers aimed at designing assault
weapons so that they escape the stricter
controls for restricted rifles.
IWI Tavor: “Non-restricted” bullpup assault rifle
made in Canada by a consortium of military
manufacturers to replace the M16 and M4 used by
the Israeli army.3
SKS: Weapon designed toward the end of the Second World War and still used in war today.
According to a dealer quoted in a feature article on the subject in La Presse, “it’s the prototype of
the AK-47, it’s the same gun.” This “nonrestricted” firearm in Canada is associated
with serious public safety issues. It is
relatively inexpensive and available online
starting at around $200. This is the model
for both guns used by Bryer Schmegelsky
and Kam McLeod to kill two tourists last summer in British Columbia (one of them legally
obtained by one of the killers a few days prior). It is also the weapon that was used to kill
Constable John Davidson in Abbotsford in 2017 by a gun owner whose license had expired, and
the gun legally acquired by Afghan War Veteran Lionel Desmond just hours before murdering his
wife, daughter and mother in Nova Scotia that same year.
Derya MK12: “Non-restricted” assault weapon in
Canada that was recently introduced onto the
Canadian market (summer 2017). According to
firearms enthusiasts, it resembles the AR-15. This
weapon was just recently involved in a
confrontation in Alberta, where a man fired shots
from his residence, seriously injuring a woman
inside her neighbouring home. This was followed by
a car chase that ended in a shootout with the police that left the man dead. A police officer was
shot during the confrontation.
Norinco Type 97: A “non-restricted” semi-automatic
version of the standard assault weapon used by the
Chinese military. It is the model that Toronto Police
Chief used while lauding the ban announced on
May 1 as an example of “military assault style
weapons” that “endanger families and
communities.”
4) Legislate a system of pre-authorization for new models so that, contrary to the existing process, only
new models having been inspected and authorized by relevant authorities (RCMP) can enter the
Canadian market. It should be noted that while the current Liberal government intends to inspect all
new variants before they can enter the market, there is no legal obligation for them to do so. Until
recently, most inspections were carried out by the industry itself. Future governments could just as
easily decide to close their eyes to new entries onto the market and once again rely on manufacturers
or importers to classify their weapons (note the blatant conflict between economic and public safety
interests). This is precisely what led to the Swiss Arms/CZ 858 fiasco.4
5) Ban modifiable magazines that can easily
be converted to their full illegal capacity of
20, 30, 50 or even 100 rounds, as was
done by Bissonnette (Mosque), Bain
(Metropolis) and Bourque (Moncton),
Here are some examples. The RCMP has
long highlighted this problem (see end of
this memo). For a real ban on large
capacity magazines, the government must eliminate this aberration as well as several other loopholes
related to magazines.
6) Limit magazine capacity to five bullets for all firearms instead of the current limits of five (5) for
non-restricted firearms and ten (10) for restricted firearms. The Quebec Mosque shooter used five
legal 10-bullet magazines to kill and injure all of his victims with 48 bullets in less than two minutes.
B) HANDGUNS
7) Close the tap: no more importing or manufacturing of handguns. The number of privately held
handguns has more than doubled in the past seven years, going from 460,000 in 2012 to over
935,000 in 2019 — a 103% increase. By adopting this measure, Canada will be stuck with the
handguns in circulation, but at least their proliferation will stop.
8) Avoid offloading the responsibility of banning or further restricting handguns onto municipalities. Local
bans are generally ineffective, as the disastrous patchwork of local and state laws south of the border
clearly demonstrates. Moreover, local bans would have to overcome enormous obstacles, including
provincial governments opposed to gun control and an array of legal and jurisdictional complexities, in
addition to long and acrimonious political battles with the gun lobby. Many mayors have publicly
endorsed a federal approach over a municipal one.
9) Institute the mandatory storage of handguns (and all restricted weapons) at gun clubs, in secure
storage areas or compartments. Not only would this measure deliver on your party’s current election
promise, namely to “further strengthen safe-storage laws,” but also the Liberals party’s 2015 promise
to “get handguns … off our streets.” (Another, less preferable, option would be a handgun ban with
grandfather clauses, with permission to use them in gun clubs.)
C) POSSESSION PERMIT (ISSUANCE AND REVOCATION)
10) Invest significant efforts and resources in strengthening the screening and monitoring of licence
applicants and licenced owners. The existing processes vary across the country but are generally lax.
For example, in Quebec, there is zero follow-up on licence applications unless a complaint is filed. All
licence applications should trigger a systematic follow-up with references, spouses/ex-spouses and
medical professionals having treated an applicant for mental illness. As for preventive interventions in
relation to current owners, revoking a licence and removing firearms should be based on the
precautionary principle that prioritizes public safety. Strengthening the existing processes would
directly meet your party’s election promise, namely, to address “the problem of gender-based and 5
intimate-partner violence head on, by [adopting a law] temporarily suspending firearms licences for
people who are suspected of posing a danger to themselves or others, including their partners or kids.”
11) Ensure that any new “red flag” law provides net concrete public safety benefits. Quebec already has its
own red flag law (Anastasia’s law), which is currently of little use, since even when police are aware of
risk factors, they tend to lean towards the “rights” of gun owners rather than err on the side of public
safety. A case in point: Raymond Papatie had a history of spousal abuse and suicidal behaviour, but
the police returned his guns to him after yet another of its numerous interactions with him. A few
months later in February 2016, during the next interaction, Papatie killed a young police officer,
Thierry LeRoux, the same officer who had given him back his guns on the orders of his supervisors. In
addition, both health professionals and the public are uninformed about the risk factors and the
importance of signaling them to the authorities. In short, any legislative process connected to
“red flags” must first address current enforcement failures in order to provide net concrete public
safety benefits and not constitute another feel-good but ultimately hollow measure.
D) OTHER MEASURES
12) Give police officers better access to commercial sales records data, first, by repealing the requirement
for them to obtain a search warrant to investigate a firearm at a dealer — an absurd obstacle that did
not exist for 40 years but was added by your predecessor via Bill C-71, passed last year. Apart from
the absence of a registry for all firearms, we fail to see how the Liberal government will be able to
honour its election promise to better detect bulk purchasing without opening up access to
commercial sales records (“establish a program to flag bulk purchasing [to ensure that] police can
better detect straw purchasing schemes that divert firearms into the illegal market”). Right now, an
individual can purchase firearms in 50 different stores located across Canada. It will be impossible to
detect bulk purchasing by a single licence holder without being able to compile the data from
commercial sales records from across the country.
13) Implement as quickly as possible the measures contained in Bill C-71, legislation passed in May 2019.
14) Implement the Firearms Marking Regulations in accordance with Canada’s obligations under two
international treaties on illicit gun trafficking. Despite your party’s 2015 promise to “immediately”
enact these regulations, the Liberal government has delayed their implementation twice, in 2017 and
2018 (the last time until 2020).
15) Amend section 74 of the Criminal Code to prevent future abusive challenges of
the decisions made by firearms officers regarding the issuance of permits for
restricted firearms. Such challenges do not require a lawyer and they allow
protestors to keep their weapons until the end of the proceedings, including
appeals.
While we await the opportunity for a proactive discussion with your team as part of a
genuine consultation, we thank you once again for the regulations of May 1 and for your
undeniable dedication to public safety.
Heidi Rathjen, B.Eng., LLD (hon), Dr.h.c. (hon), M.S.C. Nathalie Provost, B. Eng., M.Sc.A.
PolySeSouvient Coordinator Survivor and PolySeSouvient Spokesperso
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Trying to make sens of gun laws 
Trying to get them provide data for their new classification
It will soon be 30 years... and they still haven't been able to explain how they could "ban" some firearms because they were a "variant" of another banned firearms... even though there are no legal/technical definition of what constitute a "variant"
Trying to get them provide data for their new classification
It will soon be 30 years... and they still haven't been able to explain how they could "ban" some firearms because they were a "variant" of another banned firearms... even though there are no legal/technical definition of what constitute a "variant"
Oh, great. Just great. I just purchased a WK and Tavor this year....
It is extremely irritating to read this letter, seeing that these people not once alluded to the gang crime with smuggled handguns, which causes significantly more deaths than the once-in-a-blue-moon mass shooting, which is really not a regular occurrence in Canada. It is blatantly clear what the end game is with these people and it's not stopping real crime.
It is extremely irritating to read this letter, seeing that these people not once alluded to the gang crime with smuggled handguns, which causes significantly more deaths than the once-in-a-blue-moon mass shooting, which is really not a regular occurrence in Canada. It is blatantly clear what the end game is with these people and it's not stopping real crime.
Anthony Nardelli
Regular
- Location
- Newmarket, Ontario
Keep in mind the letter sent to Bill Blair is over a year old. In all probability, they would have been added to the prohibited weapons list mandated by this OIC by this point. They amended the list several times in the succeeding weeks but I am unaware of any recent additions.
Oh...I see. I wasn't aware that this list was perpetually updated. I thought that the May list was definitive, until further notice. That is brutal if they are constantly updating the ban list and not releasing any kind of notification.
I guess if there was something coming, the firearms retailers would start pulling makes/models off their retail sales catalog - unless the local gun stores are just as much in the dark as we are.
steamy teabag
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Inside Carneys Reich
That is LITERALLY how its done.
Nobody's aware until there turned into Criminals by the Government/RCMP, reason being they do not allow "public access" to the "FRT" Firearms Reference Table. Another fine example that cements the argument that the Government/RCMP have no business making firearm policies, as demonstrated by their own actions.
Luckily for the firearms Community we have members that care and one went to the trouble of creating a "publicly accessible FRT", use it to educate others and inform yourself on what and what isn't banned.
Banned Firearms Link / Lien sur les armes à feu interdites
https://www.armalytics.ca/?size=n_5...ilters[0][values][0]=Yes&filters[0][type]=any
