Tactics Question (Video Added)

Ganderite

Ganderite

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In CQB we have to draw our pistol, rack the slide and fire two to the body (huge target) and one to the head (smaller target, and if we miss the head shot, the other hits don't count). then we change mags and repeat.

This string is fired after we rapid fire our carbine till empty. We try to shoot it as fast as possible so as to have more time for the pistol.

After readying your comments about my timer, and how speed is not as important as accuracy, I am wondering about the order win which I shoot the pistol targets. Until now I have always taken as much time as needed to get a good head shot, then doubled tapped the body quickly. After reading about grip, etc., I wonder if I would be better off taking the two quick body shots first, to establish the grip perfectly, then fire the head shot?

BTW, I seldom have time to fire the second pistol mag.
 
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I'm probably going to practice this string and the one at 10m on Saturday. I'll film it and post it up.
What are the times for those strings again?
 
I think the difference between transition from an upper target to a lower target, or a lower target to an upper target would be negligible. You are moving the gun the same distance either way. You probably should look at making your transition from the carbine to the pistol and the reload as efficient as possible through dryfire drills.
 
Not sure what these drills are, as I don't do cqb, but if you're loading and then having to shoot 2 to body and 1 head shot, I say stick with going to the body first, cause it's wider target to quickly line up and take your shots (even if a bit sloppy, if wider scoring zone, should be o.k.), and by then you have a bit of groove going and easier to then line up head shot and pause for careful aim, then squeeze that trigger.
How many seconds do you have to load mag, rack and fire those 3 shots ? 5 seconds...that should be plenty of time.
 
If I was the match director I would require you to shoot two to the body 1 to the head. as engaging it the other way doesn't make any sense from a realism standpoint. If I was left the option of deciding it myself when shooting, it would really all depend on the targets and distance. There is a school of thought that believes it's harder to slow down than it is to speed up.
 
I think it is 15 seconds. We advance 5 yards, shoot 2 and 2 with carbine, drop the rifle mag, drop the carbine, draw pistol, rack the slide and then 2 and 1, reload and 2 and 1 on the other target.

colt45gunner said:
Not sure what these drills are, as I don't do cqb, but if you're loading and then having to shoot 2 to body and 1 head shot, I say stick with going to the body first, cause it's wider target to quickly line up and take your shots (even if a bit sloppy, if wider scoring zone, should be o.k.), and by then you have a bit of groove going and easier to then line up head shot and pause for careful aim, then squeeze that trigger.
How many seconds do you have to load mag, rack and fire those 3 shots ? 5 seconds...that should be plenty of time.
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Why are you dropping the rifle mag prior to transitioning to pistol? Course of fire dictated?
Same with racking the slide of the pistol to start - is that CoF dictated? Seems a bit...odd.

Regardless of above, I would tend to shoot two to body and head last as that a) makes sense, and b) easiest way to shoot it fast.
Those carbine rounds should be out and the transition to pistol happening in about 2 seconds. If the first target takes you 5 seconds with the racking and first three rounds, you have 3 seconds for your reload and 5 seconds for the remaining 3 rounds. Very do-able for a target at 15m.
 
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I find it easiest to dump rifle mag as fast as I can. Take my time and get a good sight picture, sight picture, sight picture...for pistol.

I'm not big on the pistol having to be racked either. My understanding is MOST of the guys in the military must carry their pistols this way???
 
beltfed said:
Why are you dropping the rifle mag prior to transitioning to pistol? Course of fire dictated?
Same with racking the slide of the pistol to start - is that CoF dictated? Seems a bit...odd.

Regardless of above, I would tend to shoot two to body and head last as that a) makes sense, and b) easiest way to shoot it fast.
Those carbine rounds should be out and the transition to pistol happening in about 2 seconds. If the first target takes you 5 seconds with the racking and first three rounds, you have 3 seconds for your reload and 5 seconds for the remaining 3 rounds. Very do-able for a target at 15m.
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Yeah but it's shot at 25m..lol
 
There's two CoF in the CQB match that require transition to the secondary.
One is shot at 25m. Starting at 30m on the whistle you live to the 25m line and shoot two rounds on each of two targets @ 25m. Dump the mag and show a clear chamber to your safety (immediately behind you) then transition to the pistol. You draw, rack, and shoot two to the body and one to the head on one target and then perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with two to the body and one to the head. If you do not make the head shots the pistol shots on the body do not count. This makes these two shots (on a head at 25m) the two hardest and most valuable shots in the match since each one is potentially losing 15 points if you miss or do not fire them. Target is a figure 11.
The second transition string is at 10m and on the whistle you engage one target with 5 rounds from the rifle, perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with 5 rounds. Drop the mag and show a clear rifle. Transition to pistol and engage one target with 5 rounds to the head, perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with 5 rounds the head. I believe the time for this one is 25 seconds but I might be wrong.
So.
As Slavex stated, I would engage the two to the body first since it is a failure drill and it makes sense.
The critical thing here is to perform the movement, reloads, and transitions as quickly and efficiently as possible to give yourself as much time as possible to shoot. I generally do not feel rushed when I'm shooting on these strings.
If you cannot make the times and/or get your hits with the pistol at 25m there is little point in my mind to flinging the rifle shots too. I would rather take the easy points, rifle shots on the body at 25m, and shoot this part slow. Rather than rush the rifle shooting, drop points and then not get the pistol points too.
 
PapaHotel01 said:
There's two CoF in the CQB match that require transition to the secondary.
One is shot at 25m. Starting at 30m on the whistle you live to the 25m line and shoot two rounds on each of two targets @ 25m. Dump the mag and show a clear chamber to your safety (immediately behind you) then transition to the pistol. You draw, rack, and shoot two to the body and one to the head on one target and then perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with two to the body and one to the head. If you do not make the head shots the pistol shots on the body do not count. This makes these two shots (on a head at 25m) the two hardest and most valuable shots in the match since each one is potentially losing 15 points if you miss or do not fire them. Target is a figure 11.
The second transition string is at 10m and on the whistle you engage one target with 5 rounds from the rifle, perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with 5 rounds. Drop the mag and show a clear rifle. Transition to pistol and engage one target with 5 rounds to the head, perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with 5 rounds the head. I believe the time for this one is 25 seconds but I might be wrong.
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I think there are three CoF. The first one is repeated again at a closer distance. Probably 15 yards.

It is easy for me to get good rifle shots, no matter how fast I shoot. My carbine scores are excellent. The big challenge is getting the pistol head shot and then getting the second mag of pistol rounds fired, with another head shot.

The head target is about 7". Not an easy shot from 25 yard when you want to shoot fast.
 
PapaHotel01 said:
There's two CoF in the CQB match that require transition to the secondary.
One is shot at 25m. Starting at 30m on the whistle you live to the 25m line and shoot two rounds on each of two targets @ 25m. Dump the mag and show a clear chamber to your safety (immediately behind you) then transition to the pistol. You draw, rack, and shoot two to the body and one to the head on one target and then perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with two to the body and one to the head. If you do not make the head shots the pistol shots on the body do not count. This makes these two shots (on a head at 25m) the two hardest and most valuable shots in the match since each one is potentially losing 15 points if you miss or do not fire them. Target is a figure 11.
The second transition string is at 10m and on the whistle you engage one target with 5 rounds from the rifle, perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with 5 rounds. Drop the mag and show a clear rifle. Transition to pistol and engage one target with 5 rounds to the head, perform a mandatory mag change and engage the second target with 5 rounds the head. I believe the time for this one is 25 seconds but I might be wrong.
So.
As Slavex stated, I would engage the two to the body first since it is a failure drill and it makes sense.
The critical thing here is to perform the movement, reloads, and transitions as quickly and efficiently as possible to give yourself as much time as possible to shoot. I generally do not feel rushed when I'm shooting on these strings.
If you cannot make the times and/or get your hits with the pistol at 25m there is little point in my mind to flinging the rifle shots too. I would rather take the easy points, rifle shots on the body at 25m, and shoot this part slow. Rather than rush the rifle shooting, drop points and then not get the pistol points too.
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The course of fire is slightly flawed in my humble opinion.
I realize this is not training, but your CoF should have some rationalization that at least on the surface ties back to reality (IMHO).
Transitioning to a pistol is an IA as would replacing a magazine or clearing a malfunction would be.
The point of which is getting a firearm back into the fight, and being a pistol, presumably that fight is very close.
Why not simply have the shooters run dry and place the rifle on safe before transitioning?

IIRC the head shots are on a figure 14 superimposed on the figure 11? That is definitely advanced shooting at 25m under the circumstances, but still quite do-able. I would recommend a change in the scoring procedure to incur a penalty for a miss other than cancelling out the other two body hits, as you are essentially weighting the two head shots unevenly in the CoF.
The 10m course of fire sounds down right easy.
 
beltfed said:
The course of fire is slightly flawed in my humble opinion.
I realize this is not training, but your CoF should have some rationalization that at least on the surface ties back to reality (IMHO).
Transitioning to a pistol is an IA as would replacing a magazine or clearing a malfunction would be.
The point of which is getting a firearm back into the fight, and being a pistol, presumably that fight is very close.
Why not simply have the shooters run dry and place the rifle on safe before transitioning?

IIRC the head shots are on a figure 14 superimposed on the figure 11? That is definitely advanced shooting at 25m under the circumstances, but still quite do-able. I would recommend a change in the scoring procedure to incur a penalty for a miss other than cancelling out the other two body hits, as you are essentially weighting the two head shots unevenly in the CoF.
The 10m course of fire sounds down right easy.
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I agree going to the pistol should be an IA. The rifle is run dry and bolt locked open. Shooter drops the mag. The safety man sees the empty chamber and declares "SAFE!" and then shooter can drop the rifle and draw pistol. Pistol has an empty chamber.

Dropping the rifle mag and empty pistol may seem like over-kill, but remember that shooters are not holster qualified. Any one can shoot CQB. More guys get to shoot and have fun this way, so it is a good compromise.

The 25 yard stage may be "do-able" - but not by most of us. I sometimes get a head shot, but have yet to get 6 scoring hits. This is why I am asking for help.

Yes, the 10m CoF is easy so long as shooter can draw and reload pistol smoothly.
 
Here is a video that includes the 10 yd CoF. 5 shots on both targets with rifle, then same with pistol. This is the easy shoot. I video my shoots so I can debrief myself, later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ui4C3IMGgQ

This is me shooting the 15 yd CoF. With the pistol, I take my time to get the two head shots first, then do the body shots. next time I will try the other way around. I use a M&P now. Seems to run smoother than the CZ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SfXDsL8u84
 
Viewing the videos you posted; in a nutshell, you need to go faster.
Everything you do, be it mag changes, target aquiring and transitioning from one to the next needs to be stepped up in tempo.
 
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