Taig cnc milling machine

Waterloomike

Waterloomike

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Might there be anyone here with experience on this machine?

Is it adequate for light gun smithing projects?

Would it be useful for any other projects?

Is it a serviceable unit at all?

Is there something better in the same or similar category?
 
if your machining parts in brass or alum, then its ok for a hobby
I have a manual taig and its ok for that but slow
if i had to do it again, i'd get the x3 sieg

a tormach would be nice but alot of bucks

what kind of parts are you looking at making ? that would help alot, when picking a machine
 
dimeN said:
if your machining parts in brass or alum, then its ok for a hobby
I have a manual taig and its ok for that but slow
if i had to do it again, i'd get the x3 sieg

a tormach would be nice but alot of bucks

what kind of parts are you looking at making ? that would help alot, when picking a machine
Click to expand...

I'm hoping for something that can handle up to tool steel. But if it's big bucks to do that, then it's out of my league.

I've also wondered about auctions and so forth for a full size milling machine. sometimes there are bargains, but I wouldn't have a clue what to look for.
 
Some guys do ok stuff on the Tormachs, its one of the more capable hobby grade cnc mills. Taigs are little toys, but they have their market.
Finding a real cnc used, in good shape is of course ideal but if you go too old the electronics can have issues that can't always be fixed, and mechanical/wear problems also happen. But there is the odd one that has almost never been used.
Couple years ago I passed on a 1988 bridgeport 2412 that was still pretty much brand new with packing grease, only had a few hours on it but control was beyond outdated for my needs.
 
well, i use mine to slot guards for knives and it is sloooooooooooow for that.. in brass, iron, wrought iron, 416 stainless
- you have to use very small carbide endmills ( under 3/16 ) and take it extremely slow and it'll work

if your smart and have the space in your garage.. i'd buy a used bridgeport manual .... it'll come in around 1700 to 2000 and be good for anything you want !! the heavy mills are nice and rigid ... weight matters alot

don't worry about the expense... i paid some where round a thou for the machine and about close that for tooling and measuring tools ... at the moment the old bridgeports are a steal for the prices you pay
 
dimeN said:
well, i use mine to slot guards for knives and it is sloooooooooooow for that.. in brass, iron, wrought iron, 416 stainless
- you have to use very small carbide endmills ( under 3/16 ) and take it extremely slow and it'll work

if your smart and have the space in your garage.. i'd buy a used bridgeport manual .... it'll come in around 1700 to 2000 and be good for anything you want !! the heavy mills are nice and rigid ... weight matters alot

don't worry about the expense... i paid some where round a thou for the machine and about close that for tooling and measuring tools ... at the moment the old bridgeports are a steal for the prices you pay
Click to expand...

I'm going to guess that one would need to be a software and hardware engineer to retrofit for today's cnc software?
 
dimeN said:
well, i use mine to slot guards for knives and it is sloooooooooooow for that.. in brass, iron, wrought iron, 416 stainless
- you have to use very small carbide endmills ( under 3/16 ) and take it extremely slow and it'll work

if your smart and have the space in your garage.. i'd buy a used bridgeport manual .... it'll come in around 1700 to 2000 and be good for anything you want !! the heavy mills are nice and rigid ... weight matters alot

don't worry about the expense... i paid some where round a thou for the machine and about close that for tooling and measuring tools ... at the moment the old bridgeports are a steal for the prices you pay
Click to expand...

To me, this sounds like the most utilitarian option. I'm a total noob, have no machine skills and all I have is curiosity. But even then, for $1.7 to $2k, I would need to make it somewhat worthwhile.

but if I understand any of this, the manual machine would give me a far wider range of abilities as long as I could supply the skills. right?
 
well, i wouldn't say that the manual has a wider range. cnc is more for production parts

you can learn alot from books and the net on machining ( thats how i did it ) If you have a plan on what type of work you want to do and what part you want to make, it'll be easier to find the machine that will fit the bill

machining is not difficult ( despite what some people make it out to be ) it just takes time to learn, and care to be accurate

i can't say anything about a re-fitting a manual to cnc ( no experience there )

it costs alot, both the machine and the tooling.... don't forget the measuring equip ( vernier,mic, surface plate, height gauge and on and on )

I'll tell you something.... just when i jumped into knifemaking, i was told to buy the best beltgrinder i could afford ( and you just cry once over the cost ) that advice served me very well
I'd say its the same with milling. If i could do it over, i'd buy a used bridgeport and never look back ( cept its heavy... like 1800lbs heavy )
 
Waterloomike said:
I'm hoping for something that can handle up to tool steel. But if it's big bucks to do that, then it's out of my league.

I've also wondered about auctions and so forth for a full size milling machine. sometimes there are bargains, but I wouldn't have a clue what to look for.
Click to expand...

That's not actually an answer to the question of "what".

And any steel you make a tool out of becomes "tool steel". So that there is no information either. It means too many different things, to too many different people, to provide any useful information. If you try buying tool steel at the metal supplier, they could sell you pretty much anything, and it can be soft, hard, or anywhere in between. And there is a WHOLE world of difference between machining gauge plate annealed stock, like the stuff Starrett sells, and a chunk of D2 or similar, that has been hardened already. But if the guy behind the counter at the steel supplier gives it to you, and you destroy a paycheck worth of end mills trying to make it work like the one on youtube... anyway. Gotta consider some learning about the different alloys, their uses, and your actual needs, but I would suggest some plain carbon steel stock for stuff like sights or mounts, or some 12L14 (Leaded, free machining, mild steel) if you want something with as high a rate of success as you can get. Brownells sells a lot of it, maybe there's something to that! The leaded steel blues nice, solders well, but does not weld worth a damn. Cuts almost as nice as brass, thoug, making nice finishes easy. Rusts like a mofo, if you don't keep a layer of oil on it when it's bare, though.

IMO, right now, you would be better off buying some good books, and a manual metal lathe. If you already have a lathe, then a manual milling machine. You will have to learn the hows and why's of milling and turning, if you are going to learn how to program a CNC. The short answer to the reason why, is that you need to have some understanding of what is going on, to be able to recognize what will be needed to react to what ever did not work when your CNC ate the last cutter it destroyed. Add to that the need to learn at least two, maybe three different softwares to get the CNC to run and do what you actually want it to do. You may be looking at a modelling software, a CAM program, plus a machine control program, or combinations of same. Industrially, Solidworks would be a modelling software example. GibbsCam is a CAM software. LinuxCNC is a machine control software. Mach3, too, with some CAM thrown in the mix, and so on. Prices range from free to 'new house'.

If all you want to do in a home shop environment is to get started, download Mach3 and play with the wizards in it to see what it can do for you. Free and legal to start with, cheap to buy a full license. LinuxCNC (formerly EMC2) is open source and free, but quite a bit steeper learning curve and nowhere near as beginner friendly as a one-stop source.

Grab a copy of Digital Machinist magazine. Read the ads, read the advertisers websites. Tr to wait until you understand at least a bit, of what they are selling, before you drop a dime on something.

CNC is great for onesie-twosie work, provided you are making something that can not be more practically built by other means. compound curves, blended radii, lots of detail work, stuff like that rocks on CNC. Setting it all up to bang a flat on the side of a bar, not o much worthwhile, may as well just crank the handles.
Once you have a program saved, if you need to go back and make another, you are way ahead of the game. Want to make something similar, but different? Thaen you will be starting to look hard at the software you use, whether you can open up a file and start to modify it, or if you need to program a new part from scratch.

You don't need to be any kind of genius to do a retrofit, but you gotta be able to read and follow directions and circuit diagrams, as well as to be able to recognize when something is not working correctly and perhaps, why.

On the Taig, I don't think you'd be happy. Sherline same. The real problem is that to go heavier duty than either of those, is looking at several thousand dollars more investment. Going with an older, commercial grade machine becomes an investment in tools and tooling, as well as in the capability to move the stuff, if that is part of your life. Trade-offs and compromises, eh?

Take a look in the CNCzone site, at the different forums there. Tormach probably has the best support base, Novakon, Syil, Mikinimech, are using similar base iron for their builds.
In the small, but actually built to indstrial standards, category, Dyna Mechtronics (DM2800 and above), Emco, and a few others, built ballscrew equipped, small machines. Aged electronics and not much of a support base, though.
Above that, it runs the whole gammut. You either get too much to deal with physically, or too much to deal with electronically, depending on how big or how old the unit is. I have seen Haas milling machines listed in the $2500 range (old OLD model, needed a bunch of work), right on up to whatever brand new machine you need to make a living (or lose your shirt) with.

Learn what the capabilities are, learn a bit about machining (you REALLY need to know what is going on, if you expect to make anything useful happen) and generally do your research first, or you will be just another guy that loses his shirt or mind on this stuff.

Try to decide if you are wanting to make parts, or fix old machines (or new ones, for that matter) and shop accordingly. Educate yourself first.
If you don't have a metal lathe, like as not, you should. Then a mill. Then start getting serious about CNC. Just my opinion.

Cheers
Trev
 
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trevj said:
And any steel you make a tool out of becomes "tool steel"
Click to expand...

While I agree with most of what you said, this is plain wrong. Tool steel is a broad subset of steels are best suited to making "tools". Tool steels are always a Hardenable High-Carbon steel. Tool steels are defined as having a combination of; high minimum and maximum hardness, abrasion resistance, ability to hold a sharp or keen edge, and resistance to deformation at elevated temperatures (red hardness). In North America Tool Steels are designated by an AISI-SAE Letter/number combination that relates to their intended use or method of hardening.

http://www.wisetool.com/designation/toolsteel.htm has a good chart and some information regarding tool steels.
 
Blastattack said:
While I agree with most of what you said, this is plain wrong. Tool steel is a broad subset of steels are best suited to making "tools". Tool steels are always a Hardenable High-Carbon steel. Tool steels are defined as having a combination of; high minimum and maximum hardness, abrasion resistance, ability to hold a sharp or keen edge, and resistance to deformation at elevated temperatures (red hardness). In North America Tool Steels are designated by an AISI-SAE Letter/number combination that relates to their intended use or method of hardening.

http://www.wisetool.com/designation/toolsteel.htm has a good chart and some information regarding tool steels.
Click to expand...

To you and to me apparently (and the Steel Institute) that works, but to the jokers and fools that have come in and wanted stuff made from "Tool steel, except stainless because it's harder", the term is meaningless.
Which is kind of the real point there.

Some of them can be educated, others fight to stay stupid. :) True story! :D

I worked for the last several years of my Military career teaching basic machining skills to our metalworker apprentices, as well as spending a LOT of time sorting out what was actually needed, from what was asked for, and the 'tool steel' as a mysterious substance that somehow made all things better than if they were made of 'regular steel' was a frequent issue that came up.

I'd kindly suggest that the OP is one of the ones that is capable of learning the difference. We all started somewhere.
I'm quite certain, that despite his saying he wanted to machine the stuff, esp. on a Taig, he really does not.

Tool steel is a class of alloys. Too broad a swath of the available selections to be a valid reference point in the discussion. Whowzat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel


Further to the OP and his needs, watch the Crown Assets website, some good machines show up there. I bought my CNC Mill there for less money than I spent getting it trucked to my home, a year and a bit back, and got a good buy on a not very clean, but very well tooled Colchester lathe that was at Cold Lake when I was there.
Neither are small machines, but some small stuff shows up. Have seen at least one CNC benchtop mill, and many small benchtop lathes (9 inch South Bend or similar) come up. Most often, it seems that he machines come out of shops that are closed down, but I have seem stuff like welders be sent away because the guy using them threw a tantrum and blamed the machine when it was a skill issue, or simply didn't like the color (Blue v. Red vs. White machines).

Cheers
Trev
 
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It usually is better to start on manual machines, a lot can be done on them but it also has its limitations. For contours, engraving and such even 1 offs, can't beat cnc.
Those hybrid manual/cnc vertical mills can be a decent mix in between. Won't be fully enclosed or nearly as fast, and won't have tool changers like a full on cnc but its plenty for most.
They usually take fairly simple command at the control as far as I know, but does has its learning curve like anything else. (probably looking at 10K+ anyhow for used though, but a steal might happen sometimes )
It can be quite a price jump to get into a decent cnc with cad/cam, tooling, big enough compressor, 3phase converter and all.

As to materials, always best to call it by its AISI spec, process, and shape and finish when require, most material suppliers can work it out from that.
Most of the tool steel work you might need to do would likely be in O1 as its the most commonly available/stocked and gets hardened after machining, stuff cuts really well.

There's nothing cheap about cutting metal, but its all relative to what you get out of it.
Main thing is to be safe when doing it, as always.
 
trevj said:
To you and to me apparently (and the Steel Institute) that works, but to the jokers and fools that have come in and wanted stuff made from "Tool steel, except stainless because it's harder", the term is meaningless.
Which is kind of the real point there.

Some of them can be educated, others fight to stay stupid. :) True story! :D

I worked for the last several years of my Military career teaching basic machining skills to our metalworker apprentices, as well as spending a LOT of time sorting out what was actually needed, from what was asked for, and the 'tool steel' as a mysterious substance that somehow made all things better than if they were made of 'regular steel' was a frequent issue that came up.

I'd kindly suggest that the OP is one of the ones that is capable of learning the difference. We all started somewhere.
I'm quite certain, that despite his saying he wanted to machine the stuff, esp. on a Taig, he really does not.

Tool steel is a class of alloys. Too broad a swath of the available selections to be a valid reference point in the discussion. Whowzat?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel


Further to the OP and his needs, watch the Crown Assets website, some good machines show up there. I bought my CNC Mill there for less money than I spent getting it trucked to my home, a year and a bit back, and got a good buy on a not very clean, but very well tooled Colchester lathe that was at Cold Lake when I was there.
Neither are small machines, but some small stuff shows up. Have seen at least one CNC benchtop mill, and many small benchtop lathes (9 inch South Bend or similar) come up. Most often, it seems that he machines come out of shops that are closed down, but I have seem stuff like welders be sent away because the guy using them threw a tantrum and blamed the machine when it was a skill issue, or simply didn't like the color (Blue v. Red vs. White machines).

Cheers
Trev
Click to expand...

lol. I'm a Machinist by trade, so sometimes things irk me. However I now clearly see you were simplifying it for the less informed. My bad :D


I do agree with another poster above, a version of the SIEG X3 would be the perfect bench-top machine, if that is indeed an important part of the decision. Having said that, an older, full-size Bridgeport is by far your best bet as far as value, rigidity and productivity goes. The little machines just don't have the um-pa-pa to cut through anything too terribly taxing, whereas a good Bridgeport will plow through just about anything, supposing your tooling, speeds and feeds are appropriate. And don't worry about the cost of a machine. You end up spending ten times or more (over it's lifetime) on tooling and measuring instruments to keep it running.

Personally I'd look at taking a night course or something at the local technical college to get yourself a little bit of background. Diving headfirst into such a capital intensive trade/hobby can be daunting.
 
Blastattack said:
Personally I'd look at taking a night course or something at the local technical college to get yourself a little bit of background. Diving headfirst into such a capital intensive trade/hobby can be daunting.
Click to expand...

The OP could take this ^^^ and print it out and frame it.

The problem I have run across in the metal tool world, is the value of the names Bridgeport and South Bend, to the extent that people that are truly completely ignorant of how to assess a machine, or use it, will place greater value in the name than they do in the condition. Sellers that don't know much beyond that they found a LOT of info saying that they are desirable, double their prices, and quite happily screw the guy that buys on name.

There are a LOT of machines out there that are great tools, and a bargain to buy, from names that most won't recognize. Don't pass up a Taiwanese clone of a Bridgeport, if it is in good nick. And priced right. You can get a Hercus lathe (a legal, license built clone of a South Bend) for a fraction of what a South Bend will sell for. Boxford too. Really, they are lightweights, as far as commercial tools go, but for gunsmithing, well, an awful pile of good work has been done on them, and they were affordable.

At the end of the day, the machine on the bench, no matter how maligned, is better by far, than the machine in the catalog as perfect as it may be.

The lathes.co.uk website is a huge resource to help you sort out the who's and what's if you need to get some idea of a machine, based on names alone. Lots of folks (including the Gov't Surplus site) have used the names off the distributors label to identify the machine's 'maker' too, so it pays to have a good idea what's what.

Books! Lots of them! :) Technology of Machine Tools, by Krar. How to Run a Lathe, by South Bend. The Amateur's Lathe, by Sparey. Machine Shop Practice (2 volumes), by Moltrecht. CNC Simplified, by Krar again....It goes on forever, but those I own and can recommend.

Don't fuss over parts availability much. If it cannot be got, it can be made or worked around. Most of the time! :)

Cheers
Trev
 
depending on what you doing, if you are into doing hobbies, the Taig are ok, but limited by size, Check out CNC master.
 
trevj said:
That's not actually an answer to the question of "what".

And any steel you make a tool out of becomes "tool steel". So that there is no information either. It means too many different things, to too many different people, to provide any useful information. If you try buying tool steel at the metal supplier, they could sell you pretty much anything, and it can be soft, hard, or anywhere in between. And there is a WHOLE world of difference between machining gauge plate annealed stock, like the stuff Starrett sells, and a chunk of D2 or similar, that has been hardened already. But if the guy behind the counter at the steel supplier gives it to you, and you destroy a paycheck worth of end mills trying to make it work like the one on youtube... anyway. Gotta consider some learning about the different alloys, their uses, and your actual needs, but I would suggest some plain carbon steel stock for stuff like sights or mounts, or some 12L14 (Leaded, free machining, mild steel) if you want something with as high a rate of success as you can get. Brownells sells a lot of it, maybe there's something to that! The leaded steel blues nice, solders well, but does not weld worth a damn. Cuts almost as nice as brass, thoug, making nice finishes easy. Rusts like a mofo, if you don't keep a layer of oil on it when it's bare, though.

IMO, right now, you would be better off buying some good books, and a manual metal lathe. If you already have a lathe, then a manual milling machine. You will have to learn the hows and why's of milling and turning, if you are going to learn how to program a CNC. The short answer to the reason why, is that you need to have some understanding of what is going on, to be able to recognize what will be needed to react to what ever did not work when your CNC ate the last cutter it destroyed. Add to that the need to learn at least two, maybe three different softwares to get the CNC to run and do what you actually want it to do. You may be looking at a modelling software, a CAM program, plus a machine control program, or combinations of same. Industrially, Solidworks would be a modelling software example. GibbsCam is a CAM software. LinuxCNC is a machine control software. Mach3, too, with some CAM thrown in the mix, and so on. Prices range from free to 'new house'.

If all you want to do in a home shop environment is to get started, download Mach3 and play with the wizards in it to see what it can do for you. Free and legal to start with, cheap to buy a full license. LinuxCNC (formerly EMC2) is open source and free, but quite a bit steeper learning curve and nowhere near as beginner friendly as a one-stop source.

Grab a copy of Digital Machinist magazine. Read the ads, read the advertisers websites. Tr to wait until you understand at least a bit, of what they are selling, before you drop a dime on something.

CNC is great for onesie-twosie work, provided you are making something that can not be more practically built by other means. compound curves, blended radii, lots of detail work, stuff like that rocks on CNC. Setting it all up to bang a flat on the side of a bar, not o much worthwhile, may as well just crank the handles.
Once you have a program saved, if you need to go back and make another, you are way ahead of the game. Want to make something similar, but different? Thaen you will be starting to look hard at the software you use, whether you can open up a file and start to modify it, or if you need to program a new part from scratch.

You don't need to be any kind of genius to do a retrofit, but you gotta be able to read and follow directions and circuit diagrams, as well as to be able to recognize when something is not working correctly and perhaps, why.

On the Taig, I don't think you'd be happy. Sherline same. The real problem is that to go heavier duty than either of those, is looking at several thousand dollars more investment. Going with an older, commercial grade machine becomes an investment in tools and tooling, as well as in the capability to move the stuff, if that is part of your life. Trade-offs and compromises, eh?

Take a look in the CNCzone site, at the different forums there. Tormach probably has the best support base, Novakon, Syil, Mikinimech, are using similar base iron for their builds.
In the small, but actually built to indstrial standards, category, Dyna Mechtronics (DM2800 and above), Emco, and a few others, built ballscrew equipped, small machines. Aged electronics and not much of a support base, though.
Above that, it runs the whole gammut. You either get too much to deal with physically, or too much to deal with electronically, depending on how big or how old the unit is. I have seen Haas milling machines listed in the $2500 range (old OLD model, needed a bunch of work), right on up to whatever brand new machine you need to make a living (or lose your shirt) with.

Learn what the capabilities are, learn a bit about machining (you REALLY need to know what is going on, if you expect to make anything useful happen) and generally do your research first, or you will be just another guy that loses his shirt or mind on this stuff.

Try to decide if you are wanting to make parts, or fix old machines (or new ones, for that matter) and shop accordingly. Educate yourself first.
If you don't have a metal lathe, like as not, you should. Then a mill. Then start getting serious about CNC. Just my opinion.

Cheers
Trev
Click to expand...

thanks for all your input trevj.

I'll go over that again.

You are correct, as I said, I'm a total noob and don't even know what to ask. Hence the thread, so I could get on the path to educating myself.
 
SND said:
It usually is better to start on manual machines, a lot can be done on them but it also has its limitations. For contours, engraving and such even 1 offs, can't beat cnc.
Those hybrid manual/cnc vertical mills can be a decent mix in between. Won't be fully enclosed or nearly as fast, and won't have tool changers like a full on cnc but its plenty for most.
They usually take fairly simple command at the control as far as I know, but does has its learning curve like anything else. (probably looking at 10K+ anyhow for used though, but a steal might happen sometimes )
It can be quite a price jump to get into a decent cnc with cad/cam, tooling, big enough compressor, 3phase converter and all.

As to materials, always best to call it by its AISI spec, process, and shape and finish when require, most material suppliers can work it out from that.
Most of the tool steel work you might need to do would likely be in O1 as its the most commonly available/stocked and gets hardened after machining, stuff cuts really well.

There's nothing cheap about cutting metal, but its all relative to what you get out of it.
Main thing is to be safe when doing it, as always.
Click to expand...

$10k is way out of my league.
 
Waterloomike said:
$10k is way out of my league.
Click to expand...

Trying to get into CNC machining for $10k is like trying to get into precision long range shooting for $500. When they build these machines they build then for people to earn money. A minimum has to go into them just to make them usable.

The "hobby" cnc's are POS and don't meet this minimum. With some skill you can make parts faster manually than one of these "hobby" cnc's. Your only limitation is complicated contours. Make friends with someone who can make you the odd contour when required.

A decent manual setup can make almost anything a gun hobbyist would need. Anything more complicated could be done by a local machine shop with the right tools (and flashing some cash).

Have fun!
 
I think manual is likely to be the choice, should I do anything in this vein. I looked into a course at Conestoga but it was canceled. Maybe I'll look again.

It's just a thought exercise for now, anyway. I don't have money to just throw down on some whim. Getting involved will take a lot of questions. And it's sounding less likely with each new post.
 
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