Taiwanese lathe

[bearhunter]

I live rurally and Metal Warehouse is a 4 hr round trip for me so I only make the trip if I am starting a project that needs specific tensile strength material. I have learned to scrounge locally for "better than hot rolled" material. Hydraulic rams from wore out industrial or farm machinery is a good source for heavy bar that finishes well and is fairly tough...one thing I will say is that a good scrounger has to have more nerve than a ####house rat...

I live in a rural area as well. Making a trip to town costs me $15 in fuel alone. My wife is married to a cheap baztard, so I need a pretty good reason to make the trip to a place I don't like being anyway. Not that there is anything wrong with the place just not in my particular comfort range.

There are all sorts of places to scrounge metal. Much of it within visible range. Old baling equipment and other old, derelict farm equipment can be a treasure trove for shafting which is usually unaccepatable for firearms purposes but then again there are hydraulic cylinder rods, which make great firing pins and are usually very hard and straight enough to check your machine for run out reliably. Lots of flat plate material and of course, some very good metal can be found in the driven axles of some equipment. The same goes for other old vehicles often found in rural areas.

Angle Iron from bed frames is great stuff but it tends to be harder than mild steel. Some of those old bed frames made of tubing, both for structural and decorative purposes is very useful as well.

I'm not saying you should be re purposing this stuff but all it takes is a bit of time to gather and is often more than suitable for the intended purpose, especially when it's for practice mock ups. I am saying look at what is available in your proximity. Auto wreckers have piles of stuff useful for our purposes in their scrap bins which they will sell for quick, untraceable cash in a heartbeat.

 

[bearhunter]

if the chuck runs out a few things to check, remove it and dial the spindle, apply pressure on the side opposite to the dial and see if the bearings are tight, dial the bore of the spindle also, if the spindle is good clean the chuck by removing jaws and look for any bits in the scroll, most chucks are a cam-lock, again check for bits trapped on the face of the mounting plate, if it still runs out you can true it up, on smaller machines say upto 8 inch chuck use 3 shims the same size, put them between the jaw sides and use a die grinder mounted in the tool-post to grind the jaw face, works great and should also fix the chuck holding at the back of the jaws which causes vibration when cutting

This is all true. One thing you didn't mention is to measure the overall length of the jaws. One of my lathes has .006 in of run out. It all comes from one offending jaw. The darned thing is longer than the other two.

The fix you mentioned is a good one and I will get "a round toit" one day to correct the issue. So far, the jaw is marked and I have shims on had for the other two jaws which I use when working on something that needs to run true as is.

 

[amosfella]

This is all true. One thing you didn't mention is to measure the overall length of the jaws. One of my lathes has .006 in of run out. It all comes from one offending jaw. The darned thing is longer than the other two.

The fix you mentioned is a good one and I will get "a round toit" one day to correct the issue. So far, the jaw is marked and I have shims on had for the other two jaws which I use when working on something that needs to run true as is.

Sometimes there are wicked deals on forkhart or buck chucks on ebay. Sometimes it comes with the wrong backing plate, but that's easily fixed. Been playing around with a forkhart. It's a really cool 3 jaw system. All the jaws are the same on the scroll. The chuck tightens a third of a turn on the scroll plate. The scroll plate has an open area that you back it off to, and the jaws slide to what size you need it to, then you tighten it. Chuck runs very true. I was playing with it on my lathe, and with round shaft like a hydraulic cylinder shaft, no runout was detectable with a dial gauge.

 

[Slugz]

When I learned to use a 4 jaw chuck in school I never touched a 3 jaw again unless I had no choice. If you can learn to use one properly and can get one, do it. If you're actually interested in it then try searching on youtube for videos about 4 jaws, there are some pretty impressive guys that can dial them in quick, damn quick. They really aren't hard to use or dial in after you've learned and done it several times.

Another bonus of 4 jaw chucks is that you can turn square stock no problem. I think in school one of the things we did was square up a cube on the lathe for practice with 4 jaws.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Gentlemen, been following this with interest and have learned a lot, time to make some cuttings.

Grizz

 

[trevj]

When I learned to use a 4 jaw chuck in school I never touched a 3 jaw again unless I had no choice. If you can learn to use one properly and can get one, do it. If you're actually interested in it then try searching on youtube for videos about 4 jaws, there are some pretty impressive guys that can dial them in quick, damn quick. They really aren't hard to use or dial in after you've learned and done it several times.

Another bonus of 4 jaw chucks is that you can turn square stock no problem. I think in school one of the things we did was square up a cube on the lathe for practice with 4 jaws.

I can normally dial in a 4 jaw to under a couple thou in a minute or so, another minute or so and I can usually hit tenths. But I still just use a 3 jaw and don't worry about it, for the reasons given above. Time spent dialing in something that will get all it's work done without removing it from the chuck, from stock that is getting a skim cut anyway, is time wasted doing unproductive things.

Even for simply facing off a square to flat, it works. Get the tool on center height and go to town on it.

Cheers
Trev

 

[bearhunter]

Just to be clear. I like threading barrel tenons on the chuck, rather than on the tail stock spindle. I've heard all the arguments and I fully agree they're valid. Still when threading a tenon the first thing I do is make sure the bore of the barrel blank or even a pre contoured barrel is drilled dead center from one end to the other. Don't laugh. I've come across several that weren't but never one from a Canadian maker.

I have two lathes. Actually three if you count the old Unimat I picked up over 40 years ago that was at least 20 years old. It was great to learn on but it wasn't equipped with a thread cutting screw. It did however have the capability of being set up as a milling machine.

Back to the topic. One lathe is set up with a four jaw chuck and has 24 useable inches of bed. It's also equipped with a "spider" attachment on the rear of the spindle which like most is threaded for such an attachment. The "spider" is a great thing for making sure the barrel is aligned true to the axis of the spindle. This requires two sets of dial indicators to speed things up. Each end needs to be checked via the indicators for center. When BOTH ends are in sync then it's time to start cutting threads and reaming chambers. The lathe with the four jaw chuck also has a quick change gear box and is a Grizzly. Nice but not essential.

If the rear of your spindle isn't threaded so you can purchase or make an attachment for, it may be possible to drill and tap four opposing holes for this purpose if there is enough material extending.

The other lathe with the three jaw chuck is my go to lathe for other projects. Especially repetitive jobs. It has 36 inches of useable bed and is a back gear model, which requires a swap of gears for some threads. Most of the changes for even threads can be done with the levers on the control panel face. It's a good lathe. It also comes with a four jaw chuck which it has only had mounted twice.

If I am being really anal about truing the center of the bores, I take off the chucks and install a back plate and center and hold the barrel in place with the tail stock and rotate it with locking dogs. Hey, if it was good enough for Mikhail Kalashnikov to build an AK 47 on, it's good enough for the girls I go with.

There are some very experienced machinists/smiths on this site. They have their own likes and dislikes. I often take their suggestions to the machines to test and often adopt their methods. I'm to old to believe I can't learn a better way. The thing is, sometimes it's just to complicated or my lathe isn't powerful enough. Then I have to adapt and improvise.

OP, you will learn as you go. One thing that bothered me about both of my lathes is that they didn't come with manuals. I spent a lot of money on several books to pick up good machining practices and picked the brains of just about everyone that would let me. Some smiths and machinists are very tight lipped for their own reasons. The folks here are another story. When you get confused and need some insight take down a name and PM them with your questions. Ask on a thread as well. I learn a lot from these threads.

Next project will be a 26 inch barreled 280 Remington on an old 1640 Husqvarna action with controlled round feed. Why??? Because I have a glass smooth action, barrel blank and a good reamer and as I'm not getting any younger and I've always wanted one the time is right. That's the beauty of having your own machinery.

 

[trevj]

Technology Of Machine Tools by Krar.

If you only buy one book ever, that is the one I would recommend.

Buy an older copy.

It is pretty much the standard textbook used in Senior High School and College level shop classes. The newest editions are priced like textbooks are. Older editions don't cover as much CNC stuff. And are cheaper.

I have three lathes, a mill and a shaper in my basement, and several thousand books.

That book is the one we went to first in the Military shop, when training apprentices, it was the book we used in College, and is the book I reach for first when I need a refresher on whatever I am doing.

And I can echo the sentiment by Bearhunter. With your own machinery, you are no longer at the mercy of anyone else, as far as being able to get any metalwork done.

Cheers
Trev

 

[i_hanson]

You can always bore a set of soft jaws for your finishing work. Be sure to number them before removing them from the chuck. Also, never bore the jaws out, or put various diameter holding steps in them, without having them clamped tight.

Have fun with your new toy

 

[bearhunter]

Technology Of Machine Tools by Krar.

If you only buy one book ever, that is the one I would recommend.

Buy an older copy.

It is pretty much the standard textbook used in Senior High School and College level shop classes. The newest editions are priced like textbooks are. Older editions don't cover as much CNC stuff. And are cheaper.

I have three lathes, a mill and a shaper in my basement, and several thousand books.

That book is the one we went to first in the Military shop, when training apprentices, it was the book we used in College, and is the book I reach for first when I need a refresher on whatever I am doing.

And I can echo the sentiment by Bearhunter. With your own machinery, you are no longer at the mercy of anyone else, as far as being able to get any metalwork done.

Cheers
Trev

This is very good advice for any smith/machinist that doesn't have this book. It's one of the handiest references I know of. The only drawback is that it sometimes assumes the reader knows all of the nomenclature and nuances of the machine they are working with.

Thanks for mentioning it Trevj.

Google Guy Lautard as well. He also has several how to books out there as well as a set called "The Machinist's Bedside Reader" which consists of four volumes.

He also put out an excellent tome called "The Illustrated guide to precision barrel fitting." It's put together like a shop textbook and is written in "layman's" terms.

Now, before you really get earnest about locking up a cutting tool in the tool post, learn how to sharpen it and others you might use. Carbide tools require special "Green" silicone or diamond impregnated wheels. HSS tool bits can be ground on regular wheels and make a mess of Green wheels. Learn to keep your grinding faces flat and true. Don't use the side of the wheel. Don't grind aluminum on your sharpening wheels. Grinding aluminum can be dangerous because it packs up in the grain of the wheel and can cause catastrophic failures if it isn't cleaned out.

With the cheap, brazed on carbide cutters out there many people just toss them when they chip or wear. IMHO it's well worth spending some money on the proper type of grinding stones to touch up these bits.

Also, I don't like the way some carbide inserts are ground from the factory. They almost push the metal out of the way, rather than cut it. This really isn't a problem until it comes to cutting threads.

You have a lot to learn. Have fun. It won't happen in one day and expect set backs. The thing is don't give up on it. Many lathes get a bit of use and because the owners are intimidated by the learning curve or find it more time consuming and expensive to operate than the first assumed, it gets set up, often precariously, then abandoned until they have the time or a mentor steps up to help. If you happen to be a hands/eyeballs on mentality as many are, look for a mentor. Take a course at your local college. It's mostly just common sense and proper perspective.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

both of my lathes is that they didn't come with manuals.

Chenglish manuals aren't much good either and pretty thin. Lot of tooling came with it, I'm sorting out, including a bunch of carbide insert cutters. Got some aluminum bar stock. Had some experience in the past, so should be fun.

Grizz

 

[JIMMY 808]

both of my lathes is that they didn't come with manuals.

Chenglish manuals aren't much good either and pretty thin. Lot of tooling came with it, I'm sorting out, including a bunch of carbide insert cutters. Got some aluminum bar stock. Had some experience in the past, so should be fun.

Grizz

Why didn't you buy German?

 

[Slugz]

I can normally dial in a 4 jaw to under a couple thou in a minute or so, another minute or so and I can usually hit tenths. But I still just use a 3 jaw and don't worry about it, for the reasons given above. Time spent dialing in something that will get all it's work done without removing it from the chuck, from stock that is getting a skim cut anyway, is time wasted doing unproductive things.

Even for simply facing off a square to flat, it works. Get the tool on center height and go to town on it.

Cheers
Trev

I guess I am a little bias. It's true if you're making a part complete without removing it and parting off or whatever that 3 jaw will be fine.

90% or more of parts I do are flip flop and require the second end to be finished in some way. With a 3 jaw on a manual (with hard jaws and not bored soft jaws) you wouldn't be able to get the concentricity or parallelism required from a lot of the parts I do, but it depends on your tolerances I guess. With a 4 jaw doing manual work it's there when you need to do a precision part and you don't have to waste all that time changing the chuck over. Although in hindsight I guess a lot of people hobby machining aren't going to be doing precision parts for companies or as a job.. So you're still right lol.

I miss manual machining, I've been blessed with the repeat-ability of CNC for my job, however, I would do a lot to get a couple manual machines if I could (already told the soon to be wife when the wedding is paid off I plan on saving up for a couple xD). Sadly though with the liberals increasing minimum wage so massively to increase the wage gap between the rich and poor, my 2 years of college and $20,000 that I will be paying off for years to come means I will be making after taxes only a tiny bit more than your local cart collector picking his nose in the parking lot (I used to be one of those when I was younger so I can make fun lol).

TLDR; I'm jealous and would love a manual machine. 3 jaws should be fine for hobby work.

 

[trevj]

Why didn't you buy German?

The 10:1 price differential is usually the first reason folks like to look at.

Spend $4K on a Taiwanese or Chinese lathe, or $40K on a German one, eh?

In a perfect world (where my lottery tickets win!), I would have a shop full of Swiss and German machinery, but until then, the stuff that has come my way is gonna have to do.

Cheers
Trev

 

[trevj]

I guess I am a little bias. It's true if you're making a part complete without removing it and parting off or whatever that 3 jaw will be fine.

90% or more of parts I do are flip flop and require the second end to be finished in some way. With a 3 jaw on a manual (with hard jaws and not bored soft jaws) you wouldn't be able to get the concentricity or parallelism required from a lot of the parts I do, but it depends on your tolerances I guess. With a 4 jaw doing manual work it's there when you need to do a precision part and you don't have to waste all that time changing the chuck over. Although in hindsight I guess a lot of people hobby machining aren't going to be doing precision parts for companies or as a job.. So you're still right lol.

I miss manual machining, I've been blessed with the repeat-ability of CNC for my job, however, I would do a lot to get a couple manual machines if I could (already told the soon to be wife when the wedding is paid off I plan on saving up for a couple xD). Sadly though with the liberals increasing minimum wage so massively to increase the wage gap between the rich and poor, my 2 years of college and $20,000 that I will be paying off for years to come means I will be making after taxes only a tiny bit more than your local cart collector picking his nose in the parking lot (I used to be one of those when I was younger so I can make fun lol).

TLDR; I'm jealous and would love a manual machine. 3 jaws should be fine for hobby work.

Yeah. You put the effort into precision when and where precision is needed, not when it isn't.

It sorta falls in line with learning to grind your own cutting tools, it is one of the skillsets that you pretty much need to have. When you can do these things without it being a feared task, then you get on with it at your leisure, or choose from the skills that you have developed to find the best one for the purpose.

Grinding a working lathe tool, dialing in a 4 jaw chuck, and thread cutting, all have so much hooey written about them, that the newbs think those are dark frikken arts, when they are simply skills to learn, like any other.

Cheers
Trev

 

[bearhunter]

I guess I am a little bias. It's true if you're making a part complete without removing it and parting off or whatever that 3 jaw will be fine.

90% or more of parts I do are flip flop and require the second end to be finished in some way. With a 3 jaw on a manual (with hard jaws and not bored soft jaws) you wouldn't be able to get the concentricity or parallelism required from a lot of the parts I do, but it depends on your tolerances I guess. With a 4 jaw doing manual work it's there when you need to do a precision part and you don't have to waste all that time changing the chuck over. Although in hindsight I guess a lot of people hobby machining aren't going to be doing precision parts for companies or as a job.. So you're still right lol.

I miss manual machining, I've been blessed with the repeat-ability of CNC for my job, however, I would do a lot to get a couple manual machines if I could (already told the soon to be wife when the wedding is paid off I plan on saving up for a couple xD). Sadly though with the liberals increasing minimum wage so massively to increase the wage gap between the rich and poor, my 2 years of college and $20,000 that I will be paying off for years to come means I will be making after taxes only a tiny bit more than your local cart collector picking his nose in the parking lot (I used to be one of those when I was younger so I can make fun lol).

TLDR; I'm jealous and would love a manual machine. 3 jaws should be fine for hobby work.

I don't know what shop you work for but I find there is a lot of one off type jobs out there such as shafts for farm implements etc. that can bring in enough extra coin to pay for a manual lathe pretty quickly.

Marriage equals kids and kids equals money, lots more expenses. Not that I begrudge spending money on kids.

My lathes were all paid for with one off jobs. My first lathe was purchased from an estate auction. It needed some repairs, such as new bearings and new bed ways but was otherwise OK.

It wasn't very long after I had it up and running that I was doing odd jobs for folks that needed a part refinished/made immediately. They didn't have time for a shop to get it done in their schedule. When it's going to rain and the baler needs a broken part fixed or 50 tons of hay on the ground is going to get wet and maybe not get a chance to dry again before it rots, then after making a few calls to friends my name was mentioned and we got the part either made or refinished. This only had to happen a few times and word spread.

I wasn't working for a machine shop so there was no conflict of interest. The jobs I did back then were the type of jobs that would have been more nuisances than anything else for any of the shops in the area.

There are more ways than one to skin the lack of money cat.

You will find that overtime cash will go for family and home.

One other thing, smoke??? drink a lot???? QUIT. In less than a year a pack of smokes every day equals a pretty decent manual lathe, new on the pallet. Same goes for a decent milling machine. Get a few jobs on top of it and you can easily turn a small garage into a workable machine shop that can/will bring in some much extra need dollars for the extras that go so far to enable your upcoming family's lives more comfortable and enjoyable.

 

[JIMMY 808]

The 10:1 price differential is usually the first reason folks like to look at.

Spend $4K on a Taiwanese or Chinese lathe, or $40K on a German one, eh?

In a perfect world (where my lottery tickets win!), I would have a shop full of Swiss and German machinery, but until then, the stuff that has come my way is gonna have to do.

Cheers
Trev

Oh he is pretty German when it suits him10:1?

But maybe his wallet is only 1:10 German?

 

[bearhunter]

Yeah. You put the effort into precision when and where precision is needed, not when it isn't.

It sorta falls in line with learning to grind your own cutting tools, it is one of the skillsets that you pretty much need to have. When you can do these things without it being a feared task, then you get on with it at your leisure, or choose from the skills that you have developed to find the best one for the purpose.

Grinding a working lathe tool, dialing in a 4 jaw chuck, and thread cutting, all have so much hooey written about them, that the newbs think those are dark frikken arts, when they are simply skills to learn, like any other.

Cheers
Trev

Trevj, I fully agree with this but not all people's minds work alike. Some people can read a manual, go directly to a machine, remember all of the names and functions of the levers and dials, then proceed to do functional work. Not me. I need to read the manual, take it with me and get my eyeballs on the system to correlate the information in the manual to usable information to apply to what I want to do. After I've done it a few times, it's locked in.

Some folks like the "idea" of working with precision machinery. They purchase them on whims and often these machines end up collecting dust while perched on unstable foundations. Usually if these folks had mentors, they would have continued on with their "idea."

These days, I don't "need" the extra cash that was generated by my machines. Now, I mostly just play for my own benefit. I do odd jobs for some of my farmer friends but don't charge them. I don't want to be their go to guy, every time they have a break down. I REALLY LIKE BEING RETIRED in a manner where I don't have to count every penny and can play. These days, work is the crabgrass in the lawn of life.

Having the machines helped me get to this point.

I suggest to anyone out there that is contemplating getting a lathe/mill to assess very closely how much you will use these devices. Get some books and peruse them first. These machines aren't just turn them on and go. Parts/pieces will not just magically reproduce themselves without your personal/hands & eyeballs on assistance. Some of the new CNC equipment will do this but only after a program is installed. That's another skill set altogether.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

Oh he is pretty German when it suits him10:1?

But maybe his wallet is only 1:10 German?

You got er. Price and the tooling I got with it, lathe was thrown in for free.

Grizz

 

[trevj]

Oh he is pretty German when it suits him10:1?

But maybe his wallet is only 1:10 German?

Weiler is still making manual lathes. They have a bunch of well paid German Machinists and Mechanics working there. As one might expect.

You want to have a really solidly built chair handy when you price one out though. Not a terrible investment for the right business, but well beyond the reach of someone on a hobby budget!

It is one of the somewhat mixed blessings of the modern machine tool scene, that the cheap machinery from China has driven the prices for machine tools down until many companies no longer wish to manufacture any.

The other side of that coin is that the prices of some of the once VERY expensive to procure machines, have been dragged down to the levels where a working guy can afford to buy one and keep it in a hobby shop.

A decent example is a Monarch 10EE lathe. Worth the price of a pretty significant portion of a new subdivision when new, now available as a rebuilt machine from Monarch (circa $100K US), or used, for about what a new pre- worn-out new Chinese machine of similar capacity, but vastly lower capability will cost.

Trevj, I fully agree with this but not all people's minds work alike. Some people can read a manual, go directly to a machine, remember all of the names and functions of the levers and dials, then proceed to do functional work. Not me. I need to read the manual, take it with me and get my eyeballs on the system to correlate the information in the manual to usable information to apply to what I want to do. After I've done it a few times, it's locked in.

Some folks like the "idea" of working with precision machinery. They purchase them on whims and often these machines end up collecting dust while perched on unstable foundations. Usually if these folks had mentors, they would have continued on with their "idea."

These days, I don't "need" the extra cash that was generated by my machines. Now, I mostly just play for my own benefit. I do odd jobs for some of my farmer friends but don't charge them. I don't want to be their go to guy, every time they have a break down. I REALLY LIKE BEING RETIRED in a manner where I don't have to count every penny and can play. These days, work is the crabgrass in the lawn of life.

Having the machines helped me get to this point.

I suggest to anyone out there that is contemplating getting a lathe/mill to assess very closely how much you will use these devices. Get some books and peruse them first. These machines aren't just turn them on and go. Parts/pieces will not just magically reproduce themselves without your personal/hands & eyeballs on assistance. Some of the new CNC equipment will do this but only after a program is installed. That's another skill set altogether.

Ayup. The learning curve for this stuff can feel like running into a brick wall at times. If you cannot grasp the basics, the odds of getting any further are pretty low.

That is part of the reason that grinding one's own tools is a real deal. You start to understand cause and effect, while so doing You have some vested effort involved, rather than simply walking over to the cabinet for yet another insert. It tends to focus the user's mind on getting working results. Aside from that, you are never at the mercy of what might be available, when you need a one-of, for a job that needs done here and now, either. Inserts are wonderful time savers, but so many guys think that they offer a means to skip learning a basic skill, when they should be learning it, then understanding when and why to use inserts to save a bunch of time if that is what you wish to do.
Unless you are a button monkey with no skills, hired to load and unload parts on a CNC Production floor (where you will soon enough be replaced by a parts loading robot), you need to understand what is going on in the machining process, in order to assess the results, make any changes, or make any programming variations in order to make parts that meet spec.

Retired. Yeah. They call it that because you end up tired again and again, and again... Re-tired!

Cheers
Trev