Tangent sites on sporting rifles

[conor_90]

I have seen L series SAKO rifles with nice looking little “Mauser” rear sights with fine adjustments to 500 yards.

I am not sure if it is right to call this a tangent sight, does that only apply to sights which flip up or is that a “ladder sight”?

I have also seen some fine adjustment rear sights of a similar style on Swedish rifles, any comment on makers , values anywhere to look into them?

Any other rifles with sights similar to the older SAKO rifles?

Thanks

 

[hoytcanon]

CZ Lux rifles most often came with Tangent sights, as did earlier BRNO rifles... if you are looking for a Tangent sight you might try CZ service centers.

 

[Potashminer]

OP - you used words that I think have specific meanings - is how I understand them, but I might be in error:

Tangent sight - usually on the rear of barrel - a long arm - hinge at front or back - a slider that moves forward and reverse on that long arm - which lifts or lowers that rear sight for elevation. Some had "steps" in the base part - some were more or less smooth - usually had nominal ranges engraved to set the slider.

Fine Adjustment - I think early part of WWI, various Winchester made P14 were converted by British to be sniper rifles - at the start, these did NOT have scopes - instead the rear sight was re-drilled and tapped and a threaded adjustment for the rear aperture was created - very much is a bonus to have the same serial number on that sight as on the rifle receiver - means that sight originally left the factory with that rifle - was not swapped out. Those P14 sights were usually called "Fine Adjust" - "FA". Was what the early British "snipers" used - above average rifleman, likely above average eye sight, and "fine adjust" rear sights on their rifle for setting elevation. See the book "A Rifleman went to War" - set up behind and above the Allied line - shooting OVER your line at the other guys - when they figured out where firing was coming from, would answer with mortar or artillery. So "shoot accurately" and then "move", seemed to be the game in those days.

Ladder sight - I have seen them both on the tang or rear of receiver - Sharps, P14, M1917 - and out on the barrel - some Winchester 94 carbines - typically were laid down for transport, flipped up to vertical position for shooting. Often had a fixed rear sight to be used in a rush, with that ladder in its laid down position. Some had rear aperture (near to shooter eye), some had "V" notch (out on the rifle barrel) - was likely other types that I have not seen. Has been some well used rifles here - P14 and M1917 - where previous owner filed a "v" notch into top of the rear aperture "battle sight" - so they must have had very good eye-sight to line up a rear "V" sight, so close to their eye.

 

[conor_90]

PM sounds like I am talking about tangent sights. As for “fine” adjustments I think the SAKO ones have a notch every 20 m in theory

A little surprised you don’t have a box full of commercial Swedish ones. I swear I saw a tangent sight adjusted with a dial on aftermarket on a Swedish sporter on here.

HC the CZ 22 sights look perfect; going for an oberndorf commercial sporter look. Did they do any on centrefire rifles?

 

[hoytcanon]

HC the CZ 22 sights look perfect; going for an oberndorf commercial sporter look. Did they do any on centrefire rifles?

Some older BRNO and M96 rifles were equipped with Tangent sights, but if I were looking to add one to a rifle I would probably pick up one of the 452 Lux Tangents and learn the detents on the range. Regardless of which sight you go with, you will have to test the detent ranges with your chosen ammunition. The marked gradients on the rimfire Tangent will have different corresponding distances for any load, you will just have to do some range work to determine what those ranges are.

These are M96 tangents;

 

[Potashminer]

PM sounds like I am talking about tangent sights. As for “fine” adjustments I think the SAKO ones have a notch every 20 m in theory

A little surprised you don’t have a box full of commercial Swedish ones. I swear I saw a tangent sight adjusted with a dial on aftermarket on a Swedish sporter on here.

HC the CZ 22 sights look perfect; going for an oberndorf commercial sporter look. Did they do any on centrefire rifles?

Pages 210 through 212 in Crown Jewels book has multiple pictures of tangent rear sights with dial adjustment - at least 6 or eight brands/models shown - is a notation: "The Army's intention was to equip all m/96 rifles with the SM micrometer sight, calibrated for the m/41 Torped ammunition. Trials were made with the SM sikte F-ram micrometer, but for some reason this minor modification was never carried out." - page 211, Crown Jewels - The Mauser in Sweden - by Dana Jones - copywrite 2003 Collector Grade Publications Incorporated.

Although I have some here from M96, M94 and M38, I never have had any of those micrometer adjust styles. Some apparently had an aperture sight, up on the barrel, but most have a notch for the rear sight.

 

[conor_90]

Sights attached on a dovetail presumably? Might be a road block

Can you share the name of some of the brands?

 

[Potashminer]

Sights attached on a dovetail presumably? Might be a road block

Can you share the name of some of the brands?

I will presume this was directed toward me? So far as I know all Swede and most Mauser rear sight bases were soldered to the barrel - likely with an indicating or aligning screw into a divot in the barrel for position, but usually attached with soft solder - I do not recall finding a dovetail. Most all the rear sight bases that I have removed are like long "bands" or "sleeves" around the barrel - for sure on the Swede M94, M96 and M38 rifles.

Brands and Models mentioned - J-F "Sikte", M/O Sundbyberg, Pramm, SM "Sikte" F-ram - also M/55 and M/58 shown - a SM "sikte" m/38 mentioned, but not shown, SM "sikte" AGJ-ram, Tundeden, and two Vasteras models. For whatever reason, I do not know how to make my keyboard do the double dots and other Swede symbols of their spelling of the words.

I suspect, but do not know, that the hinge pin was tapped out and the original tangent sight was removed, then same pin was re-used after inserting the dial adjust rear tangent sight - I don't think the rear sight bases were disturbed to do that.

 

[conor_90]

Cheers

I am looking at the sight base “sleeves” the micrometer is as you describe pops right into the middle of the blade replacing the buttons on its side in most styles I am looking at

I wonder if you could trim the sleeve off the sight base and solder it to a sporter contour barrel

 

[Potashminer]

Looking at a few here - that sleeve base is more than the pivot - is also the "flats" for the tangent sight to lay down against, and contains a "seat" for a flat spring. I suspect that a band around a barrel - positioned, then held in place with soft solder (sweated) is a decades proven system. I have had about "zero" luck trying to get solder to stick to blued metal - I have had to scrape it / emory it and de-grease - to get solder to stick. But I did shorten a Husqvarna 9.3x57 barrel to 20" and re-attached the front sight ramp by soft solder - less than 4% silver bearing - it has not fallen off yet - is not a band - just a ramp.

A thought for you - similar was seen, maybe in pictures - fuss to attach pivot ears to a band - then sweat the band to the barrel - instead of trying to solder those ears directly to the barrel?? Looking at the tangent sights here - that flat band spring underneath seems important - so that the tangent sight does not flop up and down when the rifle is handled - so will need a "seat" for that flat spring, as well?

Also, I am a bit leery about applying heat to only one side of a barrel - why I think it was a sleeve - heat applied all around. I was looking at how Weatherby (?) attached a recoil lug up on barrel - it appears welded (across the bottom) from pictures - not sure how they do that without bending that barrel with that welding heat. Maybe they do let it bend, and then straighten the barrel again - a pure guess ...

I did find, at that time, that NECG had a band / sleeve - was a dovetail on top for a rear sight leaf and a recoil abutment below that got bedded into the fore-arm stock, as a secondary recoil shoulder. Is an older gunsmith book here - Baker (?), Howe (?) - with project to make a banded front sight, with integral ramp, from a block of steel - was apparently an "apprentice" level thing to make - is on my "to do" list to try one day ...

Is at least one Mauser sporter here somewhere - I removed the tangent sight and the spring and locating screw - warmed it up and rotated that base 180 degrees - then epoxy bedded those pivot "ears" into the forearm - to try to make up a barrel attached secondary recoil lug - to see if I could do it. That maneuver might have been as much to "hide" those ears and still fill up the stock's inletting for that rear sight base sleeve.