target distance and grouping
- Thread starter explorin2
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easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
Please do not take the shot if I was the hostage.
Seriously, you may be right, but I wouldn't want to be on your team.
Come ON now... you live in Canada so you KNOW you're not allowed to actually do such a thing....
A funny story I read here or on some other gun forum when I first started out;
An IPSC shooter's house is invaded. Following the defensive shooting the police arrive to find the body of the home invader with tape patches over the wounds. The home owner is standing waiting with the cleared gun in the holster and an expectant expression and asking "all alphas, right?"....
A funny story I read here or on some other gun forum when I first started out;
An IPSC shooter's house is invaded. Following the defensive shooting the police arrive to find the body of the home invader with tape patches over the wounds. The home owner is standing waiting with the cleared gun in the holster and an expectant expression and asking "all alphas, right?"....
That is too bad that you hold yourself to such a low standard.
In my experience with self defense, I don't turn into a useless gibbering ball of terror, but I guess everybody is different.
Thankfully many shooters are capable of much greater performance, even under extreme stress. But I guess I would admit that there are people who probably can't do any better. I would sure hate to be one, though.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
An IPSC shooter's house is invaded. Following the defensive shooting the police arrive to find the body of the home invader with tape patches over the wounds. The home owner is standing waiting with the cleared gun in the holster and an expectant expression and asking "all alphas, right?"....
So did he pick up his brass?
Nah. Pistols are easy!
No, not wrong. Maybe not ideal, but definitely not 'wrong'. There are other components to shooting well that are far more important than finger placement, or stance, or any number of other things that people put too much emphasis on.
Won what, the prize for being a s**t shooter? And what's your baseline for 'duress'?
If that's the best you can do, (and it may hurt your feelings to hear this) then you suck. Hard. And should maybe stick to something like a shotgun. It'll pattern better at 5 yards or less.
And when I say 'you', I don't necessarily mean you personally. I mean it in a general term.
Hmmm....not many people have found themselves in a life or death fight....much less with a firearm. We're not talking tough guy fisty cuffs in the bar's parking lot @ 2am. I would think my "target" breathing would get thrown out the window under extreme stress......I might even forget to count my rounds....doubt it, but it could happen
practice practice practice. the flinch is what screws most from progressing along. firm grip, good sight picture and just relax. relaxing and letting the handgun do what it was designed to do, will take some away from you. but practice, you will know when the flinch is gone, and you'll be very happy to get by it.
Which is all the more reason that a person should strive for far better than a 2 foot square at 5 yards.
If the only stress a person has ever been under is a shot timer at a match, and that much 'duress' causes them to shoot 2 foot groups at 5m, then that person has far lower standards than anyone I know.
The flinch is never gone. Some shooters are just able to control it a bit better, and minimize the effects it has on their accuracy.
Hmmm....not many people have found themselves in a life or death fight....much less with a firearm. We're not talking tough guy fisty cuffs in the bar's parking lot @ 2am. I would think my "target" breathing would get thrown out the window under extreme stress......I might even forget to count my rounds....doubt it, but it could happen
You really should not need to be worrying about your breathing to get 6" groups at 10m. If your fundamentals go to #### and you begin to SUCK, HARD...you should still make 6" groups at 5m. I can do max speed mag dumps into six inches at that range, just slapping the trigger and point shooting overtop of the sights. There is no reason to suck THAT badly no matter how much stress you are under.
easyrider604
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Greater Vancouver, BC
Sorry. Beg to disagree. Either one flinches, or one doesn't. Flinch is when one anticipates the recoil expected upon firing and involuntarily compensates or flips the muzzle downward. Flinch is not the result of allowing or causing the gun/sights to move as one squeezes the trigger, due to an unsteady hand/finger or body vibrations.
Flinch is easy to observe when a handgun is loaded with dummies with live rounds (in the mag or in the cylinder).
Upon shooting the whole mag or whole cylinder, it will be obvious who flinches and who doesn't. No in-between.
If one can hit inside a 5 inch bullseye at 25 meters, standing two handed...it is 99% certain he doesn't flinch.
Closely related to flinching is blinking one's eyes when the shot goes off. Blinking will almost guarantee an inaccurate shot. Keeping one's both eyes open (focused on the front sight and reacquiring it after the muzzle flips up) before, during and after the shot will contribute greatly to accuracy. Making a conscious effort to control blinking also helps me control or prevent flinch.
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You're right. I don't know what I'm talking about.
Thanks for correcting me, and explaining what a flinch is, how to see if one is doing it, how to tell if you're 99% sure someone isn't doing it, and how you should also shoot with both eyes open. And it's terrific that making a conscious effort not to blink helps you not flinch. Want a cookie (but only when you don't flinch, you don't want to reward poor results)?
How much do I owe you for the shooting lesson?
Maybe a better way of saying, to make it easier for some people to understand, it would have been, no matter what a persons skill level, they will still at times anticipate the recoil of the gun. This will move their sights off the intended point of impact (also commonly known as 'flinching') when they squeeze the trigger. Better shooters will have this happen far less often then shooters with poor skill levels.
Thanks for correcting me, and explaining what a flinch is, how to see if one is doing it, how to tell if you're 99% sure someone isn't doing it, and how you should also shoot with both eyes open. And it's terrific that making a conscious effort not to blink helps you not flinch. Want a cookie (but only when you don't flinch, you don't want to reward poor results)?
How much do I owe you for the shooting lesson?
Maybe a better way of saying, to make it easier for some people to understand, it would have been, no matter what a persons skill level, they will still at times anticipate the recoil of the gun. This will move their sights off the intended point of impact (also commonly known as 'flinching') when they squeeze the trigger. Better shooters will have this happen far less often then shooters with poor skill levels.
Wow. Epic hate on sale right here! I merely meant if someone was rushing at me from five yards away armed with a knife I would be happy to be able to draw my gun and hit the two foot square across his chest.
As for the OP's question, when I want to know if my gun is shooting straight I usually shoot from seven to ten yards. I practice dry firing quite a bit.
As for the OP's question, when I want to know if my gun is shooting straight I usually shoot from seven to ten yards. I practice dry firing quite a bit.
Wow. Epic hate on sale right here! I merely meant if someone was rushing at me from five yards away armed with a knife I would be happy to be able to draw my gun and hit the two foot square across his chest.
As for the OP's question, when I want to know if my gun is shooting straight I usually shoot from seven to ten yards. I practice dry firing quite a bit.
That's how I took your comments and agreed......I think that a few of these guys are letting their strings show. I mean; they were both very clear that anyone who cannot maintain Clint Eastwood cool in a life or death scenario just sucks. (i wonder how many notches these guys have on their handles?) as they speak from "experience"
Great feedback all ... was at the range yesterday afternoon and thre was improvement ... big improvement.
Just need to slowdown and take my time ... and practice. Still alot of work ahead of me, but on the right track now.
I was shooting about at about 25 yrds standing with two hands on the gun, and it just seems like a very short distance, but may have to shorten that up a bit to get some satification of tighter groups.
I found trying to keep count of my shots helped slow me down ... put me in Zen mode.
Just need to slowdown and take my time ... and practice. Still alot of work ahead of me, but on the right track now.
I was shooting about at about 25 yrds standing with two hands on the gun, and it just seems like a very short distance, but may have to shorten that up a bit to get some satification of tighter groups.
I found trying to keep count of my shots helped slow me down ... put me in Zen mode.
I did a probationary shoot yesterday and it was pretty much the first time I've had an opportunity to shoot more than a round or two out of a pistol. I did a 20rnd from mags loaded with 5 rounds each and the group was roughly 3.5-4" at 12 yds or so. I was shooting pretty quickly and trying not to think about anything except follow through and regaining sight picture appropriately after each shot.
I had 2 fliers, one high one low and I found that the grouping was slightly left and low, which I understand is due to either a poor position on the trigger or poor trigger control (pulling too hard or something). I do notice during dry fire drills with my own G17 that the pistol tends to jump left a bit on the trigger break.
Overall pretty happy considering it was my first time, and I can certainly work on my issues which I feel are minor at this point.
I was using a range use G17 and MFS ammo.
I had 2 fliers, one high one low and I found that the grouping was slightly left and low, which I understand is due to either a poor position on the trigger or poor trigger control (pulling too hard or something). I do notice during dry fire drills with my own G17 that the pistol tends to jump left a bit on the trigger break.
Overall pretty happy considering it was my first time, and I can certainly work on my issues which I feel are minor at this point.
I was using a range use G17 and MFS ammo.
That is exactly what I took your post to mean...and that standard is terrible.
I aim at 6 o'clock with about 2" of white showing under the black. My eyes aren't very good and if I let the front sight get closer to the black I tend to get more elevation in the group.
I squeeze and resist the urge to pull the trigger when the sight picture looks good. i want the shot to be a surprise each time. If I have a round that has misfired, or a dummy brought for the purpose, I shake the 10 rounds and then load them, not noting where the bad round goes.
If the gun jumps at all when the gun dry fires in that string, I know I am cheating and pulling the trigger.
I have had good coaching as a rifle shooter, but never as a pistol shooter. It has been my experience that the basics of rifle are good training for handgun and a bow, since I shoot handgun and bow fairly well. I am a terrible with a shotgun and suspect that if I did a lot of shotgunning I would be practiceing bad habits for rifle and handgun.
I squeeze and resist the urge to pull the trigger when the sight picture looks good. i want the shot to be a surprise each time. If I have a round that has misfired, or a dummy brought for the purpose, I shake the 10 rounds and then load them, not noting where the bad round goes.
If the gun jumps at all when the gun dry fires in that string, I know I am cheating and pulling the trigger.
I have had good coaching as a rifle shooter, but never as a pistol shooter. It has been my experience that the basics of rifle are good training for handgun and a bow, since I shoot handgun and bow fairly well. I am a terrible with a shotgun and suspect that if I did a lot of shotgunning I would be practiceing bad habits for rifle and handgun.
