target distance and grouping

wicked_police said:
Re-read post #26. Here, I'll even make it easy, this is the important part.



And if you ask anyone that knows something about using a pistol or acceptable accuracy, such as misanthropist, you'll get the same response about how acceptable a 2 foot square group at 5 yards or less is (hint: it isn't acceptable).


Honesty can be a mean and brutal thing.
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A 2 foot square group at 5 yards will drop your assailant......2 foot square= vitals, vitals with holes in them = the start of a bad day.....most likely for both individuals involved...just worse for one than the other. This is the point my friend. In the blink of an eye target acquisition is unlikely, adrenaline and reaction would rule the moment. No thinking....no time. IMHO being judged by 12 IS ACCEPTABLE over being carried by 6 :cool:.
 
OldFrankHog said:
*BEEP*
Un-holster
Shoot
Shoot
Holster
*BEEP*

Time elapsed : 2 seconds or less
Shots Fired : At least 2
Distance : Whatever you want
Group under 6 inch : BULLs**t

Keep doing IPSC and telling yourself you rock!
Click to expand...

NEVER re-holster on the timer.


Other than that, man...you must not shoot all that much if you think that's not possible.

To get a good run on FAST you need to get your first two hits in 2 seconds from the holster...and that is on a 3x5 CARD at 7 yards.

I recall shooting with Slavex this spring...I was doing hits on ~1 foot square plates from the holster in about 1.6-1.7s.

Of course that was at around 20-30m IIRC...Slavex may recall more. Incidentally both he and WP are better shooters than I am, as well. So if I can hit a six inch circle twice from the holster in two seconds, a very good shooter can do better.

And a two foot square IS NOT the vital zone on anyone smaller than Westicle.

A two foot square is a square, two feet on each side. A person's vital zone is about a foot wide.

ONE foot square...THAT is the vital zone. Two square feet...that's borderline. Four square feet (i.e. a two foot square) is WAY larger than the vital zone on any human being I have seen recently.
 
misanthropist said:
NEVER re-holster on the timer.


Other than that, man...you must not shoot all that much if you think that's not possible.

To get a good run on FAST you need to get your first two hits in 2 seconds from the holster...and that is on a 3x5 CARD at 7 yards.

I recall shooting with Slavex this spring...I was doing hits on ~1 foot square plates from the holster in about 1.6-1.7s.

Of course that was at around 20-30m IIRC...Slavex may recall more. Incidentally both he and WP are better shooters than I am, as well. So if I can hit a six inch circle twice from the holster in two seconds, a very good shooter can do better.

And a two foot square IS NOT the vital zone on anyone smaller than Westicle.

A two foot square is a square, two feet on each side. A person's vital zone is about a foot wide.

ONE foot square...THAT is the vital zone. Two square feet...that's borderline. Four square feet (i.e. a two foot square) is WAY larger than the vital zone on any human being I have seen recently.
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Priceless. It can all be mathematically worked out. The difference between life and death.
 
misanthropist said:
I don't know if you're trying to be poetic or what, but if the difference between living and dying is getting shot in the vitals or not, and making the hit is dependent on the size of the vital zone, then yes, that is something you can work out with math.
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I am just trying to say when #### happens I train people to know what matters and what does not. No I ain't no poet!
 
misanthropist said:
Well, I am guessing one thing you don't train them to do is shoot people to save their lives, because in that particular case, one thing that actually DOES matter is accuracy...not coincidentally the theme of this thread.
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Okay you can have the last word. Can I go to bed now???:D The theme of this thread has long since died. Poor OP didn't know what he started!
 
plinker 777 said:
A 2 foot square group at 5 yards will drop your assailant......2 foot square= vitals, vitals with holes in them = the start of a bad day.....most likely for both individuals involved...just worse for one than the other. This is the point my friend. In the blink of an eye target acquisition is unlikely, adrenaline and reaction would rule the moment. No thinking....no time. IMHO being judged by 12 IS ACCEPTABLE over being carried by 6 :cool:.
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This is from a Doctor, on a different site.

"For defensive shooting to save your life or the lives of others, there are very few spots on the body where immediate incapacitation can be achieved. A "C-zone" hit is not going to do it. For that matter most other targets used in shooting events are not going to be realistic representations of what must be hit to rapidly stop a dangerous aggressor.

The CNS IPSC "credit card" A-zone or 3x5 target is pretty much the only place that will cause immediate incapacitation. Other than that, the spinal column and high central chest vascular system are the next best targets."

So your 2 foot square target zone may eventually work in stopping your threat (if you hit the target, since your 2 foot zone only works on a static target, not a dynamic one that is moving, turning, jumping, etc), but what happens to you and those around you in the time it takes the bullets to start working?

And target acquisition is not only likely, but necessary. But that does not mean a perfect stance and grip, precise sight alignment and sight picture, etc, required for bullseye shooting. Proper training also prevents adrenaline and reaction from ruling the moment. That's why we train, to program in the desired response to certain situations that will ensure the proper and desirable outcome.
 
prploux, to be fair you DID set the stage when you jumped in and said that shooting a two foot square at 5 yards was "adequite" and even suggested that the abilty to do better than that is somehow not needed. Your pictures showing that you CAN do better just point out how silly that post saying that accuracy is wasted with pistols really was.

The rest of the thread just followed a natural downhill path after you opened that door.

Even your claim that such "accuracy" is adequite would be highly argued by many defense focused shooters on other boards. In threads about defensive shooting it typically comes down to "shot placement" aimed to hit a major organ which is intended to produce a would sufficient to stop an attacker in their tracks and end the threat. And the concensus is that one needs to have far better control than a "two foot square".

And in fact this "standard" is the basis of the IPSC and IDPA targets with their points zones. The targets have been "neutered" over time to look less like actual people torsos and heads but they are still the same size as this was the whole point of the "game". And if you look at the Alpha and -0 zones on those targets they areas are a lot smaller. Yet folks manage to draw and shoot very fast with a bit of practice and STILL get Alphas or -0's on a regular basis.
 
Okay using my 22 LR Hammerli single shot target pistol with a one hand hold, it's no problem for myself to keep all shots into three inches at 25 meters.
Using my S&W 624 in 44 Special or the S&W Model 64-3 in 38 Special, using either one, with a two hand hold and can hold about the same groups with good ammo at the same distance.(slow fire)
I am fairly new to bullseye pistol shooting and I struggle hard to keep my 22 Hammerli within 6 inches at 50 meters. Again with a one hand hold on a good day with great ammo.
I feel myself barely adequate compared to the experienced shooters I meet in the Saskatchewan Handgun Association.
Last weekend, during casual practice at the Bonnyville range, Silverback here on CGN shot a nice 3inch, six shot group at 50 meters, from his scoped and very nice Dan Wesson Model 44, from a supported shooting position.
If he had not of flung one, it would have been a two inch group!
This kind of shooting is only possible with frequent practice, and we do that whenever we can do so. Ammo burned up over the warmer months, probably 1200-1500 centrefire and about 2000-2500 rounds of rimfire for about 25-30 visits to the gun range, this year for myself.
 
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I'm no great shakes in the accuracy department BUT what I would do in the OP's position would be to start at 5 yards with a paper plate. Shooting slowly and repeating the basics and working to get all shots somewhat centred on the target. Once you have a single hole (no matter how large, all shots connected) at 5 yards, move the plate to ten yards and start shooting a 3x5 card at 5 yards. If you're shooting a pistol as what I refer to as a martial artist, you need to shoot from contact to 25 yards, each of which has it's own challenges. Also when you're confident in your ability to hit the plate at 20 and 25 yards, move it back in and push your speed, you'll find accuracy deteriorates as speed increases but if you're holding in a standard sized paper plate you should be doing OK. Being new to pistols you might want to consider checking out pistol-training dot com, there are a lot of drills and excercises that help build skills.
 
Just gonna ask in here cause it's kind of relevant. How many rounds to make a group for pistols? 5? a mag or two? Whatever I want?
Just because after the second or third mag I start jinxing myself trying to have no flyers, and then I get flyers... and then I'm sad.
 
OldFrankHog said:
*BEEP*
Un-holster
Shoot
Shoot
Holster
*BEEP*

Time elapsed : 2 seconds or less
Shots Fired : At least 2
Distance : Whatever you want
Group under 6 inch : BULLs**t

Keep doing IPSC and telling yourself you rock!
Click to expand...
Lol! Well, 2 seconds is a very long time and 6" is a huge area....sounds pretty doable to me...
 
AR60 said:
Just gonna ask in here cause it's kind of relevant. How many rounds to make a group for pistols? 5? a mag or two? Whatever I want?
Just because after the second or third mag I start jinxing myself trying to have no flyers, and then I get flyers... and then I'm sad.
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The standard seems to be five. I don't know where it came from. Gun mags (Guns and Ammo) always used five shot groups for handguns.

BCrider, I accept my share of the blame for the degradation of this thread!
 
misanthropist said:
Yes...a two foot square is a square, two feet on a side.

2 feet x 2 feet = 4 square feet. But if as you say math isn't your thing, don't worry about the calculations, there's plenty of places on the internet to just look it up.
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2' squared = 4' area, not 4' squared area, which would work out to an 8' area and so on. I could be wrong as i didn't look it up on the internet..... :eek: I've just realized that i've broken my own cardinal rule arguing with someone such as yourself :bangHead:....stop it Plinker, ;)
 
Loving this thread! I'll just add a couple of thoughts from another shooter fairly new to handguns. I would agree that the flinch is never totally gone, and if you ever do make it your #####, it's still right under the surface there, ready to slap you when you least expect it:) I watch Hickok45 bangin away on the steel on Youtube, and ringing his 80 yard gong (about two feet around;)) and I know this guy is no bullseye shooter, but holy crap when he does shoot at the close targets at speed I wouldn't want my vitals hiding behind any of them. And then he'll come up on an empty chamber and his gun will sometimes almost dip two feet! It's a constant and lifelong thing, the anticipation, and not just with pistols. The same thing applies to rifle shooting - a twitch at 100 yards is a clean miss at 300. It's what makes the shooting sports a supreme challenge IMO.
 
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