I can't pull the wool over anybodies eye's around here can I?
Minted the quarter myself, along with the .243 diameter pencil which I whittled from an old Oak tree in the front yard.
Target Pic from Sunday
- Thread starter CyaN1de
- Start date
I can't pull the wool over anybodies eye's around here can I?
Minted the quarter myself, along with the .243 diameter pencil which I whittled from an old Oak tree in the front yard.
I don't do Iron Sights
In Soviet Russia, Iron Sights don't do you.
Funny, but I only brought it up because Iron Sights are mandatory for 300m UIT, as far as I know...
- Location
- Virden, MB
My brother only shoots iron sights. Hes pretty good. Its impressive to watch him. He doesn't shoot groups mind you. Just small targets standing up at 100 yards. Like bowling pins and spinners. Its all fun.
We don't shoot for group per se....we shoot for score but once in awhile you end up with a very nice group.
Can I shoot 300M groups like this all day, everyday? Not a chance. But once in awhile the stars and planets align in such a way that you get to pull one of these off.
I am always amazed at this rifle and how it shoots considering I was convinced that the barrel was a soon to be tomato stake.
I shot a similar group a few weeks ago with the same rifle as well.
Can I shoot 300M groups like this all day, everyday? Not a chance. But once in awhile the stars and planets align in such a way that you get to pull one of these off.
I am always amazed at this rifle and how it shoots considering I was convinced that the barrel was a soon to be tomato stake.
I shot a similar group a few weeks ago with the same rifle as well.
Last edited:
Same here - there's nothing like hitting what you aim for; that's what rifles were invented for in the first place, no?
Pardon my ignorance/newbishness, but if one is good at making tight groups, doesn't one just need to adjust elev./wind accordingly to be a good "for points" shooter? Or am I grossly simplifying? I mean a group shooter aims basically for where the first bullet hit - just adjust your group to make it at the bullseye, no?
Vice-versa seems to apply here as well - if you're a "for points" shooter, don't you always want your bullet to go dead-centre?
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Rich, that is great shooting and an awesome group. Doing it in the cold is a huge plus too. Congrats.
redman, of course, we all want our bullets to land dead center but that rarely is the case. F class rarely allows many wind flags so condition doping becomes your biggest weakness.
Sometimes the conditions are stable or readible and you can drive them into the same hole. Other days, 'where did it go????'.
Most of us try for the X ring. Anywhere on the X ring. With the reduced target, that is now a 1/2 MOA group. Not great by BR standards but real tough to do under F class protocols especially as the distance increases and/or weather gets tricky.
To shoot a clean score, an Fclass shooter only needs to shoot MOA at any distance. Given the gear that we have access to, sure sounds easy. However, when you check the scores all across NA, not very often do you see clean scores, let alone a perfect score.
Nature seems to always get in the way.
Jerry
redman, of course, we all want our bullets to land dead center but that rarely is the case. F class rarely allows many wind flags so condition doping becomes your biggest weakness.
Sometimes the conditions are stable or readible and you can drive them into the same hole. Other days, 'where did it go????'.
Most of us try for the X ring. Anywhere on the X ring. With the reduced target, that is now a 1/2 MOA group. Not great by BR standards but real tough to do under F class protocols especially as the distance increases and/or weather gets tricky.
To shoot a clean score, an Fclass shooter only needs to shoot MOA at any distance. Given the gear that we have access to, sure sounds easy. However, when you check the scores all across NA, not very often do you see clean scores, let alone a perfect score.
Nature seems to always get in the way.
Jerry
Terry Perkins
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Bruce County
Congratulations CyaN1de! That is very nice shooting. Good luck getting more like that.
I can attest to the fact this was a 10-shot group + 1 sighter
This target has a 35mm outer-edge to outer-edge diameter. This is the NEW ICFRA 300M Target dimension. This translates into exactly .4 MOA, not .5 as we were first led to believe would be the case. But, I love it!!!
No longer will the first "4" kick the crap out of your spirits knowing you just lost the match. The secret will be to get fewer 3's and 4's than everyone else
This target has a 35mm outer-edge to outer-edge diameter. This is the NEW ICFRA 300M Target dimension. This translates into exactly .4 MOA, not .5 as we were first led to believe would be the case. But, I love it!!!
No longer will the first "4" kick the crap out of your spirits knowing you just lost the match. The secret will be to get fewer 3's and 4's than everyone else
Jerry,
For sure, there's no doubt that getting the tight group itself is no easy feat, but my question was: if one is a good group shooter, there's nothing stopping you from making your tight group be on the bull as opposed to somewhere else on target, is there?
For sure, there's no doubt that getting the tight group itself is no easy feat, but my question was: if one is a good group shooter, there's nothing stopping you from making your tight group be on the bull as opposed to somewhere else on target, is there?
RM,
Theoretically no. If one is a good group shooter, you should be a good application shooter, but there are some pertinent differences in style...
Those that shoot for groups (such as BR shooters), tend to shoot several rounds in quick succession to capitlaize minimal changes in conditions, which means that if conditions are relatively stable, all rounds will land in a nice tight group (Theoretically). Where the group happens to fall on the target isn't as important as the size of the group, whereas score shooters place their shots in relation to the target, not the place where the last bullet hit.
In application shooting, each shot is examined and scored, which in the real world takes time. During that span of time, (especially with a slow target puller) conditions can change a great deal, meaning a score shooter tends to need "better" condition-reading skills. Furthermore, shots must occur within a specified period of time from the time the target is raised, so you cannot simply "wait-out" conditions.
Theoretically no. If one is a good group shooter, you should be a good application shooter, but there are some pertinent differences in style...
Those that shoot for groups (such as BR shooters), tend to shoot several rounds in quick succession to capitlaize minimal changes in conditions, which means that if conditions are relatively stable, all rounds will land in a nice tight group (Theoretically). Where the group happens to fall on the target isn't as important as the size of the group, whereas score shooters place their shots in relation to the target, not the place where the last bullet hit.
In application shooting, each shot is examined and scored, which in the real world takes time. During that span of time, (especially with a slow target puller) conditions can change a great deal, meaning a score shooter tends to need "better" condition-reading skills. Furthermore, shots must occur within a specified period of time from the time the target is raised, so you cannot simply "wait-out" conditions.
One would think that might be the case but it isn't really. Although related, the two disciplines (group and score) are subtley different.
When shooting ten shots for score, an "X" is an "X". It doesn't matter if it hits center or nicks the edge. On the other hand, if the first shot for score is a four (or a nine, depending on the target and event), that point is gone and can't be recovered.
If shooting a ten shot group, the first shot is a gift. That is, it can hit anywhere on the target. It is only necessary that the other nine hit in the same place. Here's the other difference; the perfect group is one with all shots precisely through the same hole and the man who comes closest to attaining this is the winner. The score shooter has only to nick the scoring ring.
In group shooting, an errant shot (after the first one) spoils the group but one may minimize the effect by "filling in". That is, placing subsequent shots between the group and the flyer. This way, the center of the group is shifted and the group is (hopefully) made no worse.
In score shooting, that flyer is gone. The point is lost. Subseqent targets won't make up for it since they can never score more than the top value. A group shooter can, with a spectacular group, make up for a poor target. At least, to a certain extent.
The other difficult part about score shooting is that there is always a certain amount of dispersion. One can't know if his first shot, which hits on the right side of the "x" (or "V", depending on the match and target) is the shot which represents the left or right side of the group which will form. He may decide it represents the left side of the group so he gives it a click left only to discover it was, apparently, the right side of the group and he has now missed the "V" and maybe even shot a four.
So there are challenges to both disciplines and they are not shot quite the same. Regards, Bill.
When shooting ten shots for score, an "X" is an "X". It doesn't matter if it hits center or nicks the edge. On the other hand, if the first shot for score is a four (or a nine, depending on the target and event), that point is gone and can't be recovered.
If shooting a ten shot group, the first shot is a gift. That is, it can hit anywhere on the target. It is only necessary that the other nine hit in the same place. Here's the other difference; the perfect group is one with all shots precisely through the same hole and the man who comes closest to attaining this is the winner. The score shooter has only to nick the scoring ring.
In group shooting, an errant shot (after the first one) spoils the group but one may minimize the effect by "filling in". That is, placing subsequent shots between the group and the flyer. This way, the center of the group is shifted and the group is (hopefully) made no worse.
In score shooting, that flyer is gone. The point is lost. Subseqent targets won't make up for it since they can never score more than the top value. A group shooter can, with a spectacular group, make up for a poor target. At least, to a certain extent.
The other difficult part about score shooting is that there is always a certain amount of dispersion. One can't know if his first shot, which hits on the right side of the "x" (or "V", depending on the match and target) is the shot which represents the left or right side of the group which will form. He may decide it represents the left side of the group so he gives it a click left only to discover it was, apparently, the right side of the group and he has now missed the "V" and maybe even shot a four.
So there are challenges to both disciplines and they are not shot quite the same. Regards, Bill.
As I stated in another thread regarding group shooting. If I am load testing at 100 or 200M, the last thing I would be doing is shooting out my aiming point because this could lead to a larger group due to inconsistent point of aim this is why BR shooters aim at one point on the target and their bullets impact on another part of the target.
I always have my bullet impact above/below/beside my aimpoint by 1MOA or better. I know I can dial in the windage and elevation to put it where it counts when needed.
As Ian stated above we can have up to 1minute in between shots (string shooting) when you combine the marking time, the time to re-check conditions, find your holdoff point, check conditions again and adjust if necessary. I have had to change hold points as many as 3 or 4 times before letting a shot off due to changing conditions. Partner that with being squadded 2 or more people to a target and time between shots is now doubled,tripled or even quadrupled if you get paired with a slower shooter.
EDIT: Good points Bill. (You were posting as I was typing and yakking on the phone)
I always have my bullet impact above/below/beside my aimpoint by 1MOA or better. I know I can dial in the windage and elevation to put it where it counts when needed.
As Ian stated above we can have up to 1minute in between shots (string shooting) when you combine the marking time, the time to re-check conditions, find your holdoff point, check conditions again and adjust if necessary. I have had to change hold points as many as 3 or 4 times before letting a shot off due to changing conditions. Partner that with being squadded 2 or more people to a target and time between shots is now doubled,tripled or even quadrupled if you get paired with a slower shooter.
EDIT: Good points Bill. (You were posting as I was typing and yakking on the phone
)
Last edited:
Leeper, CyaN1de, outstanding descriptions of the difference between group/point shooting, and the frustrations of both!
One part I didn't get is the inconsistent point of aim (from the beginning of CyaN1de's post)... How does that happen? Scope adjustments being faulty?
One part I didn't get is the inconsistent point of aim (from the beginning of CyaN1de's post)... How does that happen? Scope adjustments being faulty?
RM
If the wind happens to be blowing from the east when you touched-off your shot, your POA will either be pointed up-wind, or you will have adjusted your scope based on your knowledge of the conditions and how your cartridge performs.
If - all of a sudden, the wind flags look like a pecker at a Margaret Thatcher nude photo exposition, your POA will be closer to POI or your scope will be dialed back to "zero".
Not all shooters use scope adjustments to accomodate changing conditions. I often prefer to hold-off rather than try and remember what I dialed into my scope with my syphyillitic-scarred brain.
Do you see the difference?
If the wind happens to be blowing from the east when you touched-off your shot, your POA will either be pointed up-wind, or you will have adjusted your scope based on your knowledge of the conditions and how your cartridge performs.
If - all of a sudden, the wind flags look like a pecker at a Margaret Thatcher nude photo exposition, your POA will be closer to POI or your scope will be dialed back to "zero".
Not all shooters use scope adjustments to accomodate changing conditions. I often prefer to hold-off rather than try and remember what I dialed into my scope with my syphyillitic-scarred brain.
Do you see the difference?
I guess it depends on the target you are using and the type of reticle you have. Generally you are shooting on some kind of a bullseye type target with a small round center. If you start putting bullets through your small round center you will most likely not be holding the same point of aim shot after shot as you will be making a larger and larger hole where your point of aim USED to be.
Now....if your impact point is above or below or beside the small round circle, you can be pretty sure that you are holding the same point of aim (or as close to as humanly possible) for every shot from first to last.
I have found using a cross hair reticle with a cross type target is even hard to make sure both the horizontal and vertical lines of the reticle are lined up with the target. It's much easier to keep your eye on the center part of the scope and target rather than trying to look at the entire reticle and target face all at once.
If that makes any sense to you.
Now....if your impact point is above or below or beside the small round circle, you can be pretty sure that you are holding the same point of aim (or as close to as humanly possible) for every shot from first to last.
I have found using a cross hair reticle with a cross type target is even hard to make sure both the horizontal and vertical lines of the reticle are lined up with the target. It's much easier to keep your eye on the center part of the scope and target rather than trying to look at the entire reticle and target face all at once.
If that makes any sense to you.
Makes sense. What I found that worked for me (when zero-ing in) was using a target where the bullseye had an "X" instead of a "+", so my reticule wouldn't cover it up (it's 6.5mm wide @ 100m, regardless of zoom). That way, I could easily tell where on the bull I was, because I just had to make sure that the vertical and horizontal lines of the reticule were always bisecting the four angles that make up the "X"...
Even with that method, try a few groups with a minute of elevation on your scope so your impact is below or above the intersection and see if there is a difference in average group size as compared to obliterating the cross point.
When you use a dot style reticle such as the one I use (NF NP-2DD) no number or angle of crosses on a target is going to help you
When you use a dot style reticle such as the one I use (NF NP-2DD) no number or angle of crosses on a target is going to help you
Last edited:
