if it is an annual re-qualification, the PWT required to qualify must be shot live at the proper range. All PWTs leading up to it can be shot in a SAT range. (ie for the infantry,the minimum annual re-qualification requirement is PWT 3. PWTs 1 and 2 can be shot on the SAT range and PWT3 must be performed on a live range with the rundown. The night supplement must be shot for qualification badges to be issued).
Tavor accuracy @ 25,100 and 200 meters
- Thread starter Dutchie
- Start date
ok, game on. Fact: its not a critical part of the weapon, like the bolt catch. it simply holds the cocking handle forward, contrary to popular belief your weapon will continue to function. is it NS? technically yes but....... Reality: In a combat situation, or training situation for that matter, if one of those breaks your drills might be modified (which they shouldn't because if you've been training properly your drills will NOT be effected at all) but you have bigger issues at that particular moment in time (achieving your objective at a minimum, dying at the extreme), continue firing and fix it after (you might have a sore cheek, though I doubt it and bruised knuckles, I personally prefer this to the other).
Now, I believe in murphy's law, bull pups:
Pros: - Convenient, it's slightly shorter and therefore easier to manoeuvre in urban operation and vehicles. (pistols are better at times)
Cons: - not ambidextrous (whoa, slow your roll there, I know the tavor can be configured left and right but....), if your left handed and should something critical break on your weapon, you cannot (Painfully) pick up a right handed weapon and fire it, moreover, its very painfull firing weak hand, you know hot brass casings and burning powder and all (and I haven't even touched on unconventional positions or around obstacles, you know, lying on the strong side firing strong hand and having a casing bounce off the ground and back into the ejection port again). and especially with the first version of the SA-80 because of the reciprocating handle (this does not apply to fn 2000 or RFB, but they are gravity eject). even furthermore, even if you did tough out the brass and powder, to charge the weapon you need to reach over or under it (which is easy with the AK but awkward with a bullpup, you have to reach way forward) breaking your point of aim or hold/position. (*Famas and QBZ-95/T97 are the exception to this point*)
- you cannot conduct an effective emergency magazine change (again, take a deep breath) there are a few people who say " you take your hand off your pistol grip......" at that point I hold up my hand and say "stop" and they carry on " you reach back and hit the mag release and with the support hand reach down.....". " ok " I says, " lets see it" (dry and I inspect the chamber to ensure) and so they line up with the target take a deep breath, I hit my stop watch and say " when your hammer drops I hit stop, GO" they take their hand off their pistol grip and POW! I hit them as hard as I can in the back of the knees "you just got blown off your feet by an explosion or you tripped over battlefield debris!", "I wasn't moving!", "then your ####ing dead, because you are never static!" you'd be surprised how many guns go flying. not to mention your "emergency" reload is slow and requires a lot of fine motor skills to complete, in a high stress situation.
- your tactical reload is ineffective, because to effectively do it with a bullpup, Again, you HAVE to break your point of aim or hold/position of the rifle.
- balance, the balance of a bullpup is obvious to the rear. our physiology is so that when we lift something we use both arms equally, thus, with a bullpup's weight unevenly distributed, when a threat presents itself and you go to engage. there is a tendency to over exaggerate the barrel past the target. shooting high over the target.
- limited accessory real estate and setup. you can in the current issued format of the C7/C8 mount; optic, BUIS, 203, peq2/4, flashlight, and still mount bayonet ( and that's basic). that's even without KA rails. mind you, this could be done with limited bullpups (ie Tavor, but only if its issued with the MARS site the has the PEQ integral, and no bayonet.
- accuracy is NOT as good as tradition rifles, kidd yourself as much as you want but their not. Barrel is lighter, and trigger is heavier.
- PLASTIC!!!!, might or might not break (or melt) but do you really want to test that out in the Canadian arctic, the AUG didn't do so well in the extreme cold. the SA-80 is metal, but how did that work out for the Brits? lee enfield made it and the Brits had to send it to HK to un#### it (or something like that, cant remember and don't care and it still sucks).
should I continue? I haven't even touched the logistical, financial, or training problems associated with switching a weapons platform.
and your right, *a lot* of militaries have adopted a bullpup platform, from wiki:
Military standard issue adoption of the bullpup:
AUS: Australian Defence Force; Steyr AUG standard issue since 1989.
ARM: Armenian Special Forces; K-3 since 1996.[8]
China: People's Liberation Army; QBZ-95 standard issue since 1997.
Croatia: Croatian Army; VHS assault rifle standard issue since 2009.
FRA: French Armed Forces; FAMAS standard issue since 1978.
IRE: Irish Defence Forces; Steyr AUG standard issue since 1988.
ISR: Israeli Defense Forces; IMI Tavor TAR-21 MTAR-21/ X95 version adopted in Nov 2009, now standard issue of all first line infantry units except paratroopers and Kfir brigade.
NZ: New Zealand Defence Force; Steyr AUG standard issue since 1988.
OMN: Royal Army of Oman; Steyr AUG.
Russia: special forces; OTs-14 Groza, A-91, Dragunov SVU since the 1990s
SIN: Singapore Armed Forces; SAR-21 standard issue since 1999.
UK: British Armed Forces; SA80 standard issue since 1985.
BEL: FN F2000 standard issue since 2004.
SLO: Slovenian armed force; FN F2000 standard issue since 2007.
However, special operations units in countries that have formally adopted bullpup designs; for example Australia, United Kingdom and France, have continued to prefer conventional rifles usually of the AR-15 pattern (e.g. M4 carbine, Colt Canada C7/C8), the SIG 550, or the Heckler & Koch G36.
I see four-ish well funded and professional armies in there out of 14 ( and of those 14 a couple are limited, IE Russia and Israel, Israel only issues T-21 to frontline troops, the rest get conventional weapons.... for now, and even then they are considering the X95 already to replace the tavor), there are 196-ish countries in the world. there are a couple other countries (iran and india) toying with the idea, but ultimately is limited at the moment. Other countries do use bullpup style weapons, but they are VERY LIMITED and not general issue.
look man, I was being nice. like I said, your review was, interesting, good but interesting. but lets be realistic, you did the PWT 1 at 25m. hardly the standard to choose a bullpup as a standard issue weapon.
now there goes an hour and a half of my life that i'll never get back trying to make this as diplomatic as possible, lets agree to disagree and allow me to go back to lurking, please.
cheers
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62 grainers seem to be what this (at least mine) rifle seems to like. So far it's the best accuracy. The 55 FMJ seemed to do well at 200 M as well.
New gear of the day for todays shoot include a set of TPS steel rings, the Fabian Brothers 5.56mm "Muzzle Stabilizer" or "compensator" and a Bushnell 6500 optics to see if the Tavor would group a bit better then with the Elcan 3.4.
Mounting the optics was interesting, as the rings were a bit low but still a go. Keeping the objective clear the forward1913 rail was the limiting factor for how forward (or rear)the scope sat. A smaller objective would have been a better set up in this particular case. But, I was able to get the cheek in position for a few groupings.
Seems to be 75mm (2.953 inches) is the best group I can get so far with factory mil-spec ammo @100M Even with the better optics.
The handloads of Hornady 75 Grain BTHPM did not do so well on this range session. I just could not keep the groups together for some reason. That was using the surplus WC735 Powder. I'll re try again with Superformance powder, and varget.
I brought out the PSS 7.62 to confirm I was doing my part, and I ended up feeling much better with a couple 23mm groups@100M.
Had to the range earlier today to beat the incoming rain we have scheduled for the next couple of days.
Either way it was another successful outing warming up barrels of 2 awesome firearms.
Not to bad from a Galaxy 3 phone!
The Fabian Brothers DTA 5.56mm Muzzle Stabilizer/Flash hider combo.
Tavor @ 100M using Mil-spec ammo. 62 Grain FMJ Bushnell 6500 Scope set to 20X
200M 5 shot groupings. Ran out of ammo so one is only 3 shots. Either way, I'm very happy with my Remington 700.
7.62x51 5 round groupings. Handloads using surplus powder. Neck sized. Lee Dies.
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I'm a Weapons Tech, so sometimes I drive out in civi pattern MRT's (Gucci), sometimes I ruck up WITH all my tools. Just depends on who I happen to be farmed out too at the time.
1. Is there a Canadian made 5.56mm bullpup available?
2. Having the combat arms issued a different rifle than CS & CCS soldiers creates a problem with the supply system.
3. There will be laser and plasma rifles by the time the CF is done the contracting wars and testing for a new rifle
lol Fact.
jeepcjaholic
CGN Regular
- Location
- Vancouver Island B.C.
Just picked my flat top up this week and I'm happy to see I can perform. Great shooting and report.
