Tavor accuracy

Ahhh...ok.
I had a Tavor and tested it and the FS2000 extensively from 100-500m when I was still shooting SR matches 1-12 - I was looking for the 'better mousetrap' to shoot a course of fire that weighed considerably on positional shooting that would arguably give the advantage to a tight, compact and light rifle as such offered in most bullpups. Neither delivered - the FS did pretty good in the accuracy department, but if there was a stoppage (double feeds are easily induced by the shooter) the shooter would be well and truely screwed. The Tavor cannot hold a candle to a bone stock AR past 200m, nevermind one with better than average accuracy.
All first hand experience. If you and all of the Tavor fanboys on this site dig it for what they are, great -all the power to you.
If you want to sell it beyond its capabilities, don't be supprised to be called on it.
 
onetwentyish said:
Nice shooting Lloyd.

Beltfed still trashes the Tavor over accuracy at every chance he gets. I always wonder how he makes such wild claims when there is proof between yours and Mikethebikes Tavor accuracy testing. Some people just like to bash stuff they cant afford or dont like the physical look of. Then they continue to try and force thier ideas on others....

Sounds reasonable.... /sarcasm.
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Two people out of all the Tavor owners on the site who have managed to do better than 2 moa hardly makes it a 2 moa average rifle. There have been a couple guys on here that claim their XCR-L is capable of 1 moa and even if it was true (which I doubt) that doesn't mean they all shoot that well. If most guys were claiming to be getting consistent groups then I would believe it but since most are getting around 3 moa then I'm thinking it's more of a 2-3 moa rifle depending who is behind the trigger. This isn't a bad thing though, not many rifles can compete with an AR in the accuracy department. It doesn't mean it isn't a great rifle, it's doing what it was designed to do and we get the pleasure of shooting it off the range so to some the $2500+ price tag is worth it.
I've shot 4 of them and to me they don't feel like the magic rifle I have to have in my collection. I liked them but I didn't shoot them off of sand bags for accuracy, I shot them the way they were meant to be shot, standing freehand and ringing gongs at 100 yards. It was a fine rifle for that and I didn't have any stoppages or trouble with the ergo's but it's just not a rifle I need. Especially since it needs a $400 trigger to give it a decent feel.

You have one, what kind of groups are you making at 100 yards? Not your best group ever but what it does regularly with your choice of ammo.
Let's see some pictures of targets at 100 yards, any ammo you want. Convince people with proof not just words. The more guys that post pics of their groups the harder it is for guys to bash the accuracy potential of the rifle.
 
In all honesty, I have never gone out shooting and testing for acuracy, I usually just hit steel. Closest I have to an accuracy test is zeroing my elcan at 100m(maybe yards?). If i remember correctly, my 5 round groups for sighting in were about 3-4"spread with crappy $0.36/round Federal bulk 5gr. .223 from TSE's easter sale 2 years ago.

I shot from a knealt position with the rifle rested on the hood of my yamaha rhino. I would have gone prone, but I hate snowbanks.

Obviously I am sure that can be improved on in both technique and ammo choice. How about we test some tavors when you come out. Maybe you could even bring some of your hand loads to try next to some factory loaded ammo. Some better glass for accuracy testing would be awesome too. Do you think you could pry some higher magnification from one of your rifles for the weekend?
 
onetwentyish said:
In all honesty, I have never gone out shooting and testing for acuracy, I usually just hit steel. Closest I have to an accuracy test is zeroing my elcan at 100m(maybe yards?). If i remember correctly, my 5 round groups for sighting in were about 3-4"spread with crappy $0.36/round Federal bulk 5gr. .223 from TSE's easter sale 2 years ago.

I shot from a knealt position with the rifle rested on the hood of my yamaha rhino. I would have gone prone, but I hate snowbanks.

Obviously I am sure that can be improved on in both technique and ammo choice. How about we test some tavors when you come out. Maybe you could even bring some of your hand loads to try next to some factory loaded ammo. Some better glass for accuracy testing would be awesome too. Do you think you could pry some higher magnification from one of your rifles for the weekend?
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I've shot sub moa with an Elcan Specter DR at 100yds, higher mag isn't really necessary for that range but I do have a Burris 2-7 sitting in a one piece mount I could bring.
My handloads probably won't do much in other rifles since they would be tuned to my barrel but I do have some high end factory fodder we could try. Plus, I'm still doing development so I don't have a box full of loads, it's all 5 of each combo for testing in my ACR or AR.
How far can we shoot wherever it is you have in mind? I'll bring the DTA if we can stretch it out a bit.
 
cr5 said:
Two people out of all the Tavor owners on the site who have managed to do better than 2 moa hardly makes it a 2 moa average rifle. There have been a couple guys on here that claim their XCR-L is capable of 1 moa and even if it was true (which I doubt) that doesn't mean they all shoot that well. If most guys were claiming to be getting consistent groups then I would believe it but since most are getting around 3 moa then I'm thinking it's more of a 2-3 moa rifle depending who is behind the trigger. This isn't a bad thing though, not many rifles can compete with an AR in the accuracy department. It doesn't mean it isn't a great rifle, it's doing what it was designed to do and we get the pleasure of shooting it off the range so to some the $2500+ price tag is worth it.
I've shot 4 of them and to me they don't feel like the magic rifle I have to have in my collection. I liked them but I didn't shoot them off of sand bags for accuracy, I shot them the way they were meant to be shot, standing freehand and ringing gongs at 100 yards. It was a fine rifle for that and I didn't have any stoppages or trouble with the ergo's but it's just not a rifle I need. Especially since it needs a $400 trigger to give it a decent feel.

You have one, what kind of groups are you making at 100 yards? Not your best group ever but what it does regularly with your choice of ammo.
Let's see some pictures of targets at 100 yards, any ammo you want. Convince people with proof not just words. The more guys that post pics of their groups the harder it is for guys to bash the accuracy potential of the rifle.
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Well, as mentioned I was getting 1.3" 5-round groups at 100 yards with one particular handload. This was also years ago, long before the $400 trigger was available (which I still do not have - but would love).
In my opinion, shooting offhand is a great way to feel out a rifle, but makes it impossible to test accuracy. Accuracy is the sum imperfection of not only the rifle, but also the ammo and the shooter. Any perceived accuracy or inaccuracy that a shooter finds while firing offhand is simply a statement of their shooting skill, or possibly ergonomics, because the human element is by far the weakest link in the chain. If you want to know how accurate a rifle is you must eliminate as much of the human element as possible - that means benched. But an accuracy claim from even a benched rifle is only a statement about the rifle paired with that specific ammo - or even lot of ammo.

So to sum it up, if you want to make any kind of claim about accuracy, in my opinion the rifle needs to be benched, and you need to try many kinds of ammunition. Now if the rifle is picky and generally performs poorly unless using a specific ammo - you could make that related statement.


beltfed said:
If you and all of the Tavor fanboys on this site dig it for what they are, great -all the power to you.
If you want to sell it beyond its capabilities, don't be supprised to be called on it.
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I only want to sell my own experience for what it is. 1.3" at 100 yards is the best rifle/ammo/shooter combination I was able to achieve consistently. I tried several different powder charges, but it should be noted that I am not what I would consider an experienced reloader (I am still weak in testing major factors such as seating depth), and everyone loves to think they are the best shooter out there but I suspect I am fairly average - I certainly don't have some sort of natural inborn shooting ability. I hope nobody takes another single persons experience, regardless of who they are, and applies it to all. I encourage as many people as possible to test out their rifles as I described above and share their results. My Tavor experience is about Lloydm's tavor; your Tavor experience is about your Tavor. Only when we have a large number of experiences can we say anything about all Tavors in general.

edit... As for the part about posting photos for proof - I love pictures as much as the next guy, but personally I never considered them great evidence. Without a rangefingder I wonder how many 100 yard targets are actually 100 yards. I have never been to a public range yet (which I suspect the majority of us use) where the 100 yard range was exactly 100 yards. And then there is always the odd turd who might try to make people like him by posting a 50 yard target and claiming it was at 100 yards... and hopefully people can measure properly. For my accuracy tests I like to use a grid pattern I created in MS Word that is exactly 1" - they make it easy to visualize when looking at a picture.
 
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Hello Tavor lovers and Tavor haters ;-)

Personal opinion first - I think that Tavor could possibly be the ultimate coyote hunting rifle: .223 should give you some fur friendly options, the gun is compact - if you drive and look for coyotes - it goes in your vehicle and out fast, if you walk and stalk - it's easy to carry and if most of the coyotes being called for are taken at 200 yards max - can it do the job ? It's a semi auto - so if you miss - you have a chance to take another shot and if you suck really bad - the AR pistol magazines give you 10 shots legal on coyotes.

I love my Savage .204 LRPV but I would hate to have to lift it up and take a fast shot unsupported (longest coyote kill - 400+ yards off the hood of the car with little 32 grain VMax)

So, after reading post after post of people praising or bashing Tavor... I decided to get one and add to my bull pup collection and do some serious tests.

This is just a teaser because I am in the process of setting up.
I wanted to get a better trigger and my Timney just came in the other day, I put my 8-32 Nightforce with BORS on it (not using BORS for now - but may need it for longer range tests) and picked up a Caldwell "The Rock" rest because my Lead Sled sucks.

I have set up the 50 yard test bed with a Chrony and printer, so I watch all the variables and here are my results from today:

IMG_3176_zpsff49cf79.jpg

That's the initial test with the U-shape insert from the hand guard removed. Using CCI BR primers instead of CCI small rifle and getting velocities that are about 100 fps higher than regular primers with 24.50gr Benchmark and 50gr VG seated to 2.260 for magazine feeding ...

Adjusted the powder charge and tested 23.20 23.40 and 23.60 charges. Getting S/D that's still too high. Brass ? Powder ? Primer ? Bullet shifting on bolt close ?
Settled on testing single piece of brass and neck sizing only with Lee collet neck die and measuring case stretch in between. After those 14 shots the case probably needs annealing badly ;-). Hardly any stretch (except in the web area) and feeds reliably all the same.

IMG_3178_zps8ef80ddb.jpg

That's an 8 shot group of those varied powder charges.

I am going for approx 3050-3060 fps which is possibly the OCW and OBT for the Tavor 18.6" Quickload predicted Node 5 at 0.949 ms

That second 8 shot group is 0.67" widest spread - please keep in mind the velocities varied between 2980 and 3067 fps so it's not what I want it to be. I want that 5 shot group clustered in the upper section - in the 3060 range. That one is 0.29" The shot right below is one of the slowest in the 2980 fps range and the two on the left are the last two shots (brass getting worn out ?) Just having fun guys and trying to put together an ultimate Canadian Coyote Gun ;-)

Please note that an AR is absolutely useless to me. If you don't know why - you shouldn't have to ask...

That's it for now.
 
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TV-PressPass said:
Huh. Looks like I need to be removing that front sight stabilizer already! Thanks for the groups!
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No worries - my previous 50gr VG groups were spectacular compared to the 69gr Sierra Matchkings... but not nearly as tight. I suppose if we want to be really methodical - I can put the insert back (front sight stabilizer) and retest ?
I am going to move into the 100, 200, 300 and possibly prone 400 yard tests but I am building a shooting bench for my path in the creek so will be back with more tests.
So far I have an ultimate 50 yard gopher gun and most likely an ultimate 100 yard coyote gun but have to verify more.
 
uninexus said:
No worries - my previous 50gr VG groups were spectacular compared to the 69gr Sierra Matchkings... but not nearly as tight. I suppose if we want to be really methodical - I can put the insert back (front sight stabilizer) and retest ?
I am going to move into the 100, 200, 300 and possibly prone 400 yard tests but I am building a shooting bench for my path in the creek so will be back with more tests.
So far I have an ultimate 50 yard gopher gun and most likely an ultimate 100 yard coyote gun but have to verify more.
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Oh! My bad. Did not realize these were 50 yard groups.

Not to take away from your accomplishments: they're still solid!

But I was mentally comparing them to my 100 & 200 yard groups and being amazed.
 
Heh... I would die and go to heaven if those were 100 yard groups... I wouldn't even bother with more tests just go shooting ;-)
What's the best you are getting at 100 and 200 yards and with hand loads or factory ?
 
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