TAVOR- Lessons learnt!

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Still alive

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Took my Tavor to the range today after a 6 month hiatus. Been shooting more AR lately.
Put the rifle through a few CQB drills with a buddy. The Tavor had previously been used as a paper puncher and this was the first time I ran it as a tac rifle. Boy! Am I glad I did. Learnt a few lessons about the manual of arms for this gun.
1) When you do a press check, DO NOT LET THE BOLT GO BACK GENTLY, like you would for an AR. Let it slam back or else the gun stays out of battery and your first round will not fire! I knew to let the bolt slam on a live round off the mag but did not realize a press check would cause the bolt to hang back!
2) Shooting support side ( weak hand) is a pain with the Tavor. I had casings bounce off the deflector, off my face and BACK into the chamber! I had 2 stovepipe type jams shooting weak hand. No problem with strong side at all. Bouncing off the face is not a problem for me but the stovepipes definitely were! Anyone else had this problem?
3) I have the stock trigger. Can't afford the new Sabra bow and trigger group yet. I found, under time and pressure, I never even noticed how heavy the trigger was at all! Shot 150 rounds today and all were A and some C zone hits on IPSC targets at 10-25yds.
4) Lining up the firing pin during re-assembly is a pain! Took me 45 mins to figure out where it actually sat in the BCG!
5) Hitting the mag release with the trigger hand takes practice. I kept gouging my wrist doing it. You have to make sure you hit it with the back of the thumb joint for best result. Those with shorter hands will have issues until you learn the technique.

Anyways, just wanted to share this with the Tavor newbies so you won't do what I did!
Maybe Dilligaf, onetwentyish and TVPP have some inputs?
 
Still alive said:
5) Hitting the mag release with the trigger hand takes practice. I kept gouging my wrist doing it. You have to make sure you hit it with the back of the thumb joint for best result. Those with shorter hands will have issues until you learn the technique.
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What I find helps is instead of trying to "bump" the mag release with the back of your hand, you should try to "press and hold." This change in mentality somehow keeps me from missing it, and also ensures I don't tap it too lightly to disengage the mag.
 
One thing that I have noticed is that when I press check, I can do it softly, as long as I make sure the charging handle returns fully forward over the catch in the frame, no problems. If it's not fully forward the bolt will be out of battery and I can't pull the trigger.
 
Jarvy said:
What I find helps is instead of trying to "bump" the mag release with the back of your hand, you should try to "press and hold." This change in mentality somehow keeps me from missing it, and also ensures I don't tap it too lightly to disengage the mag.
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I'll give that a try next time. Do you have issues maintaining a grip doing the press and hold or do you just release the trigger hand? I'm trying it now and my hand isn't long enough without looking like a spider. The rifle also doesn't feel secure with my hand spread that wide. Remember, I'm trying to dump with my right hand and reload fast with my left.
 
Sarge_DL said:
One thing that I have noticed is that when I press check, I can do it softly, as long as I make sure the charging handle returns fully forward over the catch in the frame, no problems. If it's not fully forward the bolt will be out of battery and I can't pull the trigger.
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I tried that. Like I said, I know the bolt charging handle has to be completely forward for the rifle to be in battery. After I did the gentle press check, I repeatedly pushed the charging handle all the way forward. The handle was definitely locked forward but the bolt did not close fully. The only time the bolt shut was when I released the bolt forcefully without easing it down.
I can pull the trigger. The gun just doesn't go bang!
 
Still alive said:
Did you experience my other problems?
I hope I put the bolt and pin back correctly! When I " figured" it out, it looked too easy but everything fit and the gun cycled so I hope I did it right!
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you need 3 hands, you have to hold it on both ends with one hand then put the pin to with your other hand while rotating the firing pin to hold everything together.
 
Still alive said:
I'll give that a try next time. Do you have issues maintaining a grip doing the press and hold or do you just release the trigger hand? I'm trying it now and my hand isn't long enough without looking like a spider. The rifle also doesn't feel secure with my hand spread that wide. Remember, I'm trying to dump with my right hand and reload fast with my left.
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I also have dainty little hands, but I find it's much more solid and deliberate feeling than trying to quickly "tap" it. When I do it, I keep the buttstock in contact with my body. The force pressing the rifle into my shoulder transitions from my hand in the grip, to the back of my hand against the mag release, then back again.

But I dont like that method in general, it's awkward to do in any position other than standing/kneeling. I prefer the take a fresh mag, strip the old mag out, then insert a fresh mag. That's what I intuitively want to do.

After I did the gentle press check, I repeatedly pushed the charging handle all the way forward. The handle was definitely locked forward but the bolt did not close fully.
Click to expand...

The charging handle is just connected to a bar that when pulled back, comes into contact with and pushes against the bolt carrier group. Pushing the handle forward again won't do anything to the bolt. You have to pull the charging handle back until its in contact with the BCG again, then keep pulling it back until the BCG has enough spring tension to slam forward into battery. You then release it and let the spring do it's job.
 
mikethebike said:
you need 3 hands, you have to hold it on both ends with one hand then put the pin to with your other hand while rotating the firing pin to hold everything together.
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You just put the pin in first, align it so it sits in the BCG correctly, then carefully insert the bolt in over it. I find that's the fastest, easiest way.
 
Jarvy said:
I also have dainty little hands, but I find it's much more solid and deliberate feeling than trying to quickly "tap" it. When I do it, I keep the buttstock in contact with my body. The force pressing the rifle into my shoulder transitions from my hand in the grip, to the back of my hand against the mag release, then back again.

But I dont like that method in general, it's awkward to do in any position other than standing/kneeling. I prefer the take a fresh mag, strip the old mag out, then insert a fresh mag. That's what I intuitively want to do.



The charging handle is just connected to a bar that when pulled back, comes into contact with and pushes against the bolt carrier group. Pushing the handle forward again won't do anything to the bolt. You have to pull the charging handle back until its in contact with the BCG again, then keep pulling it back until the BCG has enough spring tension to slam forward into battery. You then release it and let the spring do it's job.
Click to expand...
Yup!
I agree that the recommended technique is a bit of a pain. I normally do the left hand strip mag and insert fresh mag routine too but since I was doing rifle drills, I wanted to try it the "right" way!
That's what I ended up doing with the bolt. I just pulled it back so the bolt has enough momentum to slam forward. No more problems!
Anyone had the same stovepipe issue shooting left handed?
 
I'll make some observations about your observations (mainly because i'm bored and it's 1:45am and i have nothing better to do) even if other guys have given their nickle already:

1. Agree. Either don't do press checks or ride the bolt halfway to the rear with the charging handle and let 'er fly back into battery if you have a round in the chamber.

2. I can see how this problem could occur but have never experienced it. Mainly because i don't practice it much, if ever. I can see how it could be useful in a CQB type situation but i'm still waiting for my bada$$ oper8orz card to show up in the mail before i allow myself to try it. Try a different type of cheek weld maybe? Beats the #### outta me....

3. Dis be da troots mon.

4. Cleaning....? After 150 rounds? Fo realz b?.... Ugh.... Ok, Be that as it may, I agree that bolt assembly, on any rifle, can be a pain in the ####. You're right, the Tavor is no exception.

5. Just use your support hand. It adds what? Half a second tops to reloading? I can see why people want to use their right hand, as it looks badass and all. But is it really practical to take your right hand off the pistol grip, shoot it rearward to smack the mag release, put your right hand back on the pistol grip, take your left hand off the forend, take a mag outta your pouch, slap that bi#ch into the magwell then hit the bolt release? Or is it easier and more practical to do it all with 1 hand? I know seconds save lives in a gun fight and all but i've always found the "Slap the #### outta your Tavor" mag change technique a little phucking goofy. Is that how anyone using a Tavor in combat trains for mag changes? Or is it a youtube oper8orz technique? Just curious, i dunno.

Anyway, there's my .05$. Take it for what it's worth. Keep in mind that while i mean what i say, i'm not making fun of anyone in particular.
 
K. I will add my two cents since you asked. ;)

Little disclaimed here though first. I am by no means a trained indvidual who operates in opertions operationally. I am just a farm kid who found TVPP youtube vids and befriended him after trying his Tavor and I have since spent unspeakable amount playing with gear I cant afford. Lol. That aside, here is my opinions and comments for what its worth.

The main issues covered in this thread seem to be:
1) Press Checks
2) Support Side Shooting
3) Disassembly/maintenance
4) Speed Reloads

So here we go!

1) Press Checks: I do them all the time, kinda a force of habit. From watching some of Travis Haley's carbine vids, I have learned there are two ways one can do a press check. The first way is to do your normal pull the bolt/slide back untill you can see brass, then reseat the bolt, preferably let it slam home for best results.

The second way is to note which side your double stack mag is loaded on, insert mag and charge rifle, release and check the mag to see that the next round is on the other side. This should stop any need of taking a good gun out of battery. Then re-insert mag and firmly and give a tug to ensure it is well seated. The second way is the way Travis Haley encourages students to learn, and I personally prefer it.


2) Support Side Shooting: i have noticed the problems discribed myself, but I have found easily remidied by doing more of a costa c-clamp grip and less of the "Israeli hold" in order to shift your head further back. Also have to still mind your head.

I know TV-PP had several issues shooting support hand while laying down under a barricadexat MGM Ironman 3 gun last year, not sure if he figured out a way to solve the issue or not.


3) I must have been unusually lucky/good a disassembly/reassembly as I usually watch very carefully how I take it apart the first time in order to expidite the reassembly process and ensure I don't break something. Its only ever taken me about 1 minute to break my Tav down to the point described and maybe 2 minutes to reassemble. This skill probably is reflecting the farmerish jack of all trades master of none philosophy. I also had the IWI armorers manual the TVPP has hosted on his site in PDF that may have helped my initial experience. Haha


4) Speed Reloads: There are 2 methods. The as discussed "bump" method, and the standard Israeli "grip 'n strip" mag change. I am not a fan of the bump method at all- period. Something about reducing my grip and control of the rifle down to the outer 2/3 of the 3 weekest fingers of one hand just does not strike me as a practically or tactically reasonable thing to do. Not to mention, I have numerous mags of various manufacture that don't "drop free" so one must do the Haley "mag flip" that isn't as smooth with a tavor as an AR. I also noticed its too easy to do the bump method incorrectly with too light of a tap or too quick of a press. Couple those ideas with how sore/bruised I alway find my hand/thumb after a range visit from doing the bump method, and I feel ots a poor choice.

The grip'n strip method is my prefered style, as I can doit just as fast I swear. When you ID the chamber as empty, the back of your hand is 9" from the front of the mag well, vs close to 27" to the speed reload likely stored on your weak side hip. The front of the mag well to your speed reload likely stored on your weak side hip is probably close to 20" apart if the rifle is still shouldered forward. Based on this theory, you are adding 2" of extra travel and dont have to sacrifice/shift grip or risk loosing control of the rifle. The path the hand followsfrom handguard to mag, then strip the mag down and out towards the fresh mag is then reversed and followed to insert a fresh mag, hit the bolt release, and back to the handguard. Try, it. Practice it. It does not at all out of place, feels completly natural and there for is really easy to pick up and do fast from the start.

YMMV, but this is my perspective and experience.
 
Thanks 120ish!
I'm no operator either but I like to know how my black rifles work and to improve my skills at action games!
I have seen the T Haley vids on Youtube too and I know about the round position in the mag method. It makes sense but, out of habit, I can't wrap my head around inserting mag, chamber round, remove mag to see if round is loaded. Simpler to press check. Like I said, different manual of arms than the AR. Better to figure it out in training than in competition!
Have you tried his 2-2-4-2-2 drill?
I will look at re-positioning my head for support side shooting. The Tavor was not designed for a Costa C clamp hold with that fat front end but I will try it out! Better than jamming the gun.
Like Dorian Gray said, someone on Youtube probably invented the heel of hand bump technique and it went viral! Having said that, when I was at SHOT this year, the IMI " Zohan" rep demo'ed the heel bump technique for me and he was flipping fast!
When I was shooting static, I was doing the normal grip and strip but I wanted to try the heel bump just to see how it was. I, like you, have a ripped up, bruised right hand to show for it! I can't imagine how the new Keltec RDB will be since their mag release is actually metal and quite hard and sharp.
How's your ACR doing?
 
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