Tavor or XCR in 223?

BadAsMo

BadAsMo

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So I’ve been debating between an XCR in 223 or the Tavor. In 223 I insist on the barrel 1:7 twist rate and I have not seen one for sale with the keymod. The Tavor is standard with 1:7 so I can get one any time.

I’ve heard some issues about the XCR regarding the QD barrel gizmo not working very well and other miscellaneous issues.

The Tavor is used in the military for real, but XCR not so much. The Tavor is a little odd looking for my taste, but hey it’s based on a real battle proven design – how bad can it be right.

So ya I keep swinging from one to the other and now I’m leaning 90 % in the direction of the Tavor.

So if you actually have one or both… what are your thoughts? What are your goods and bads?
 
I'm curious why 1:7
When you consider your ammo length is limited by magazine, what advantage will you have with 1:7. What'll you be feeding it?

Sorry for the side track.
XCR
Carry on.
 
Had both. I sold both. The Tavor was a little odd and, being trained on an AR platform, the rifle wasn't very ergonomic for me. The XCR was a almost a direct transition and very intuitive. However, the XCR's weight sucked and it was unwieldy with the long barrel. I just bought an XCR keymod and it is a HUGE improvement. This thing is beautiful, balanced and extremely comfortable. If you are used to the conventional AR platform, then the XCR may be better. Try a shoulder swap on a Tavor once and you will know what I mean. If you only plan on shooting it from the primary shoulder and want to spend some time learning a whole new set of controls, the Tavor is a solid choice.

Here are some pros and cons:
Tavor
Pro
Balance - great for shooting off hand
Compact - has a full lenght NR barrel in a package smaller than a 14" AR
Military service - some will say this is a huge plus

Cons
Trigger - it just sucks, aftermarket triggers are available for huge $$$ and it still sucks compared to other rifles
Weight - it is heavy, but due to the bullpup design it balances well
Ergonomics - it just is plain unintuitive and will take time to learn. If you are not familiar with the AR platform then it is a non issue.
Transitions - I don't care what anyone says, this rifle cannot be swapped from shoulder to shoulder safely. You need to change your shooting position and be aware of the ejection port, etc.
Limited rail space - may or may not be an issue
Accuracy - I found it to be lacking ove the XCR. May be due to the horrible trigger

XCR
Pro
Ergonomics - extremely intuitive, all the controls are where they should be. Everything you could do with your AR you can do with this.
Modularity - plenty of rail space, caliber swap option.
Maintainence - way easier to work on then the Tavor. Field stripping is a little better with the Tavor though.
Accuracy - compared to the Tavor, this is a DMR.
Weight - excellent in the keymod version

Cons
Military Service - it was never adopted
Weight - the older versions were WAY too heavy
Lenght - this is a long rifle to keep it NR
Functioning and Reliability - there have been reported issues and teething problems. I have had three XCR's. One was the first batch in the country. The next was a G revision and finally the current keymod. The first two functioned flawlessly (I haven't shot the keymod yet). The first one had a horrible trigger that slapped and actually hurt. The second one was perfect. The triggers now are a dream.
Accuracy - while not a precision rifle, the accuracy is better then the Tavor, hands down.

Hope this all helped,

Skooch
 
I have both. Though my XCR is in 7.62x39. The XCR is certainly the more accurate of the 2 rifles. The Tavor is probably a 3 moa gun unless you find a specific ammo that it likes. The XCR can usually sit somewhere between 1-2 moa. If you're interested in the XCR you need to look at the Keymod, light weight barrel version. In either 5.56 or 7.62x39, this is the only version of the XCR to get. It actually balances very nicely and is all in all a pretty decent rifle. The biggest advantage of the Tavor is its short overall length. There are more accesories available for the Tavor, but the XCR is better equipped out of the box.

The XCR has a pretty good trigger out of the box, whereas with the Tavor, if you want to shoot quickly a new trigger is pretty much mandatory. Then you can buy a very nice Keymod rail for the Tavor, but the XCR comes with one built in. I do wish the XCR had a longer forend though.

If you're right handed ergonomically it's a wash. The XCR is one of the most ergonomically correct rifles for a right handed shooter. I however am a southpaw so I give a bit of an edge to the Tavor in that regard. Once I spent the extra hundred bucks on the left handed bolt and then spent 2 hours stripping the rifle completely down to convert it to left hand. My only ergonomic issue with the XCR is that I have to go over the top or underneath the thing to get to the cocking handle. Otherwise the ambi mag release and safety are fine.

Running a Tavor quickly is completely unlike running an AR quickly. It is a well designed system and with some outside of the box thinking and some practice can be run as fast or faster than an AR.

As far as shooting goes, I can't really compare recoil impulses since my XCR shoots commie ammo, so it recoils more. Like I said earlier the XCR is certainly the more accurate rifle out of the box. The Tavor wins in CQB shooting due to it's handy length, and stock design which delivers a straight back recoil impulse with very little muzzle rise. My AR with a Battle Comp beats my stock Tavor as far as muzzle rise goes, but not by much. If I went back to the birdcage flash suppressor on the AR, then the Tavor would be a clear winner in that regard.

All in all I'd say that the XCR is probably a better value out of the box, then the Tavor but that doesn't make the Tavor a bad choice. If you want battle proven reliability, or short overall length is a priority for you, then get the Tavor. But to equip it to the same level as an XCR is out of the box, it's gonna cost you more money, considering the MSRP on both rifles is within a couple hundred bucks of each other.

If you're OK with civilian developed reliability, the XCR is probably the better value.

If I could only keep one of the them, I would probably keep the XCR because I could convert it to different calibers. If the 7.62.x39 conversion kit came out for the Tavor though, then the XCR would probably go.

Or you can just go with what Skooch said, cause he beat me to it.
 
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I agree with Teddy's assessment as well. I'm a lefty as well and don't find the issue on the XCR all that bothersome. However, I'm not runnining it for speed yet.

As for shooting impulse:
Tavor seems to move laterally during recoil.
XCR has a traditional recoil and moves vertically.
Both are very smooth during the recoil stroke and seem fairly mild compared to a carbine lenght AR.
 
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Very thorough assessment Skooch and Teddy!
I also owned both in .223. I completely agree with both of you. It ultimately comes down to personal preference. Owning both is expensive especially if you equip them with all the tacticool doodads. My advice is to handle and try both first hand and decide accordingly.
I currently still have the Tavor. Weight and length was the deciding factor for me. The XCR is awful with a single point sling as it will drag on the ground if you are a short statured person.
Having said that, my AR is still my favorite rifle!
 
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I like both. :)
 
This post is bang on. I love my Tavor and won't be selling it anytime soon. I've owned only one ar15 and didn't get too attached to it, so transitioning to the Tavor was easy for me, but I can totally understand why those with a ton of trigger time on the ar platform would have difficulty getting comfortable. I have mine equipped with a RDS, so it's more than accurate enough at my ranges and requirements. One day I'll throw in something magnified and see how it actually shoots at distance.

I will say that I absolutely LOVE how the bullpup is balanced. For me it feels incredibly natural to shoulder.

The stock trigger is squishy and heavy. I just swapped out the trigger pack for a Tav D and the weight is down to about 4lbs from around 11lbs. Still squishy though. I have a Geiselle trigger bow preordered and I fully expect that to make it perfect. All accounts so far indicate a beautiful trigger with all squishy take up removed. However, both of those add an additional $500 to the price tag.
skooch said:
Had both. I sold both. The Tavor was a little odd and, being trained on an AR platform, the rifle wasn't very ergonomic for me. The XCR was a almost a direct transition and very intuitive. However, the XCR's weight sucked and it was unwieldy with the long barrel. I just bought an XCR keymod and it is a HUGE improvement. This thing is beautiful, balanced and extremely comfortable. If you are used to the conventional AR platform, then the XCR may be better. Try a shoulder swap on a Tavor once and you will know what I mean. If you only plan on shooting it from the primary shoulder and want to spend some time learning a whole new set of controls, the Tavor is a solid choice.

Here are some pros and cons:
Tavor
Pro
Balance - great for shooting off hand
Compact - has a full lenght NR barrel in a package smaller than a 14" AR
Military service - some will say this is a huge plus

Cons
Trigger - it just sucks, aftermarket triggers are available for huge $$$ and it still sucks compared to other rifles
Weight - it is heavy, but due to the bullpup design it balances well
Ergonomics - it just is plain unintuitive and will take time to learn. If you are not familiar with the AR platform then it is a non issue.
Transitions - I don't care what anyone says, this rifle cannot be swapped from shoulder to shoulder safely. You need to change your shooting position and be aware of the ejection port, etc.
Limited rail space - may or may not be an issue
Accuracy - I found it to be lacking ove the XCR. May be due to the horrible trigger

XCR
Pro
Ergonomics - extremely intuitive, all the controls are where they should be. Everything you could do with your AR you can do with this.
Modularity - plenty of rail space, caliber swap option.
Maintainence - way easier to work on then the Tavor. Field stripping is a little better with the Tavor though.
Accuracy - compared to the Tavor, this is a DMR.
Weight - excellent in the keymod version

Cons
Military Service - it was never adopted
Weight - the older versions were WAY too heavy
Lenght - this is a long rifle to keep it NR
Functioning and Reliability - there have been reported issues and teething problems. I have had three XCR's. One was the first batch in the country. The next was a G revision and finally the current keymod. The first two functioned flawlessly (I haven't shot the keymod yet). The first one had a horrible trigger that slapped and actually hurt. The second one was perfect. The triggers now are a dream.
Accuracy - while not a precision rifle, the accuracy is better then the Tavor, hands down.

Hope this all helped,

Skooch
Click to expand...
 
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Thank you everyone for the excellent feedback - and the super pictures.

To respond to some of the questions...

I'm a right handed shooter and rarely shoot left handed. The only time I would is if some match that I'm in requires it, but that's rare for me. I don’t normally shoot the CQB stuff, but I do get around a bit. Ya never know.

As for the 1:7 twist - I have some experience with the 223 over the years. In 223 I’ve had 1:12, 1:9, 1:8 and 1:7 and each twist rate has its purpose I suppose. The 1:12 for me is useless in 223. It limits the light 223 round to light fart in the wind short range low performance bullets. The 1:8 is the most accurate for long range using 80 grain SMKs which I use in my bolt gun. The 1:7 with 69 grain SMKs does the short to medium range work extremely well. I have come to believe the fast twist rate generates more immediate expansion on impact with this bullet and the damage is not at all what most 223 shooters have come to know. So for what I want to use this rifle, the 1:7 is the only choice. It is not going to be as accurate with 55 grainers but that’s ok, besides I hand load so I won’t need to pay 40 bucks a box for Federal Gold Medal ammo.

I’ve had four AR15s over the years but ditched all of them once they went restricted. I also had a (now prohib) AKS (semi auto AK47) and got rid of that too. I want guns I can use in the field, not limited to approved range use only. Especially where I live the range is indoors only, geared for pistol shooters. As far as I’m concerned the AR is the last word in this type of rifle, but I can’t hunt with it so it’s off the table.

So the XCR feels like an AR so it’s my first choice for that reason. It’s been a long time since I fired an AR, so I can’t really say I’m accustomed to it anymore, but it will come back if I buy the rifle.

It was suggested that I handle these guns, and I have, but I don’t want to make the choice based on what feels a certain way in my hand. For the better part of 3000 bucks, the gun has to work properly. I want it to hold zero, day in and day out, not float because the quick change barrel screw came loose. (As I’ve read can happen on XCRs in particular) So some reassurance is what I’m hoping for one way or the other. It sounds like the overall preference here is actually toward the XCR which I was not expecting.

Teddy49 said the Tavor is a 3 MOA gun and I’m curious if that was with 55 grainers or 69 grainers. If that was with light bullets, it would explain it. The 1:7 barrel will almost certainly be more accurate with heavier 69 or 77 grain SMK bullets. If it was with 69 grainers, then that's truly disappointing.

I believe the ever popular 1:9 for 223 is a compromise that can shoot decent groups with light bullets and also shoot decent groups with up to 75 grainers, but that’s just on paper. Since 1:9 does not spin as fast, bullets just don’t get it done on impact like from a 1:7.

I once had a Colt AR15A2 Delta Hbar. It had a 1:7 twist and would also shoot about 3 inch groups at 100 yards with 55 grain bullets. For what the gun was (a big deal at the time) I was very disappointed at first. I eventually developed a load with 69 grain SMKs and I think it was about 25 or 26 grains of Winchester 748 ball powder. I used that load for years. It shot about 5/8 inch groups at 100 yards and struck like lightening, so I’d like to get that whole thing working again with a quality non-restricted semi auto rifle.
 
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If utter absolute reliability is what you're after between these 2 rifles, then the Tavor is it. I have never had a gun related issue with mine. Can't say the same for the XCR even though Alex Robinson touts AR accuracy with AK reliability. Most people end up playing with the gas settings to get consistency.
Both feel like quality as befit their prices. If you want to max out the Tavor for accuracy, you need to spend the $ for the Geissele Sabra trigger pack and trigger bow. It turns the stock TAR trigger into an AR like one.
I only shoot 55gr AE, Rem or Win ball thru mine and can get around 3 MOA at 100M with a RDS and no magnification if I do my part. I don't have the trigger upgrade...yet!
The XCR with the QD barrel didn't group well for me. It would shoot 1MOA then get one or two flyers everytime which opens the group up to 3. It would do this regularly! Also with 55gr ammo. The trigger on my pre-keymod version was really nice though.
Hope this fills in the puzzle a bit more!
 
The Tavor may have the barrel you want, but thats meaningless to you if you can't get the accuracy you want out of it. Mikethebike has done 2 ammo/accuracy tests with his Tavor. He has been able to squeeze 1.75moa out of Hornady z-max.

The XCR has had its issues sorted out and is at a higher standard than ever with the new keymod model.

The one rifle that I think you are missing in your consideration and would probably suite you best is a ACR. If you buy a Restricted ACR (new or used) and send it to Herron Arms he can rebarrel it to Non-Restricted status exactly the way you want it, and I have heard of people squeezing 1-1.5moa out of them consistently.
 
Id get the Tavor as long as you buy an aftermarket trigger. Most seem to be terrible out of the box.

Edit: for the accuracy argument above the differencd between 1-1.5 moa and 1.75 moa is nothing for a rifle that's never meant to be precision.
 
Tavor hands down!!! I had a first run XCR and the most positive thing that I can say about it is "anything made by Norinco is better than this sh!t, and Norinco is close to the bottom of the barrel". The sucker that bought my XCR loves it, even though he has spent mega bucks getting it to function properly.
 
I have a Tavor and just over 500 rounds so far with absolutely no issues at all with it. Using federal 55gr and Tul 62gr ammo it's fed, fired and ejected every round. I did upgrade to a Super Sabra trigger and have the new trigger bow on order so there is no trigger issue for me at all. I was looking to get the XCR-M because I also wanted a semi .308 but for .223 i'm sticking with my Tavor no question.
 
When I was trying for groups with the Tavor I had a few different bullet weights. I had 3 different brands of 55 grain FMJ. Some Norc, Winchester, and American Eagle. I also had some 62 grain American Eagle and some 75 grain Hornady Steel Match. The Tavor liked the 62 grain the best. I had high hopes for the steel match, since it would do around 1moa out of my Classic Green Carbine with no problem. Even the 62 grainers were only doing about 2 inches and a bit. I was using my Leupy CQ/T which isn't even close to the best optic for trying to get good groups. But everyone I know who also has a Tavor, and more shooting ability than me, is getting results consistent with mine.
 
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