Tavor vs FN2000 vs SigCQB vs AR vs XCR vs....
- Thread starter ONT0001
- Start date
Long Range Canuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Athabasca Alberta aka God's Country
I own AR's but all my instincts would say go for the Sig out of the list......myself Im still holding out hopes for the FN SCAR in 7.62 to make itself available before I spend a penny more in the Black Rifle budget. I know if I go buy a SIG right now the SCAR will be out the next week and I will hate myself. So I just patiently waite.
AR's plenty around, I don't know if anybody would say no to one. But even if I have $3000 plus, I don't know if I would be able to get the particular AR I want, with many parts not making over the border now. (LMT, mostly...) Besides, it's something you can slowly build up over time, so I don't want to say AR for this comparison.
I would most likely go for Tavor. It's new and it's Non-Rest to boot, plenty evil looking and even in it's long barrel, it's shorter than most out there. It would be positively ticklish to take it out to the wood, to the chargrin of all the 'older' hunters out there. AND I can still use all my AR mags with it. There. Economical choice CAN be ###y choice, too.
I would most likely go for Tavor. It's new and it's Non-Rest to boot, plenty evil looking and even in it's long barrel, it's shorter than most out there. It would be positively ticklish to take it out to the wood, to the chargrin of all the 'older' hunters out there. AND I can still use all my AR mags with it. There. Economical choice CAN be ###y choice, too.
Ditto.OkDave said:
Love my AR's...10.5" and 14.5" LMT's...Never letting these 'bad boyz' go....
My Sig CQB is also a 'never sell' unit..balance, trigger, accuracy...Yummm!
My XCR is 'the new kid on the block'...will be improved with the fitment of one of the J-P spring kits...as well as a shorter barrel,if and when available!
I've put my name on the list for the next shipment of Tavor...intrigueing!
I handled the FN and would have one if available......
So many toys....so little time!
Already got the CQB & a bunch of ARs, got ZERO interest in the XCR...FUGLY! TAVOR...same deal...FUGLY! Not a big fan of the bullpups anyway, but I might seriously consider the FN2000, but I'd probably just go and buy another PE-90!
X-man said:Already got the CQB & a bunch of ARs, got ZERO interest in the XCR...FUGLY! TAVOR...same deal...FUGLY! Not a big fan of the bullpups anyway, but I might seriously consider the FN2000, but I'd probably just go and buy another PE-90!
Ah, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the way the Tavor looks! Non-restricted, and ammo is easy to get. I like the look of the M96 better than the XCR. The FS2000 is nice too. If I could get some 5.7x28 ammo, I might consider the PE-90. The AR is just sooo accessorizable! Its definitely a must have! For the money, I would buy an AR, a few accessories and a good scope.
X-man said:Already got the CQB & a bunch of ARs, got ZERO interest in the XCR...FUGLY! TAVOR...same deal...FUGLY! Not a big fan of the bullpups anyway, but I might seriously consider the FN2000, but I'd probably just go and buy another PE-90!
Same here! I would consider the Tavor, but only with the original length, restricted barrel. XCR is butt ugly and built by RobArm. FS2000, again, only the restricted barrel would interest me, and original black furniture. Next rifle I'm getting is a Swiss Arms carbine/551!
Right now I have three choices as to how to spend this summer's disposable income:
... do some home renovations ...
apparently "she who must be obeyed" wants a new kitchen - [;{(
... upgrade my 2001 BMW 1150 GS for a newer BMW GS Adventure and hit the road for a few weeks -{)
... get me one of dem dere Tavor UGLY sticks ... [<:{)
I've built about three dozen AR 15 rifles, from 7" to 20" fluted Heavy barrel target, and right now I have FOUR of these silly poodle thingys hanging around my gun room. The AR 15 is a great gun, and I'll always have one [ wellll probably TWO, as one will be in .223 and the other will be in .300 Whisper ... or maybe three as one should be in .22 LR ... or maybe one lower and three uppers??? ].
The AR 15 platform is still one of the most versatile available, suitable for CQB right out to genuine long range target shooting. And with all the new caliber conversions available, it just keeps getting better and better. It is a mature complete system, with lots of modular options and accessories available to suit it too just about any role.
However,
last weekend I got to shoot a few mags out of the TAVOR [ Thanks Chris ]. For those who did not get a chance to shoot the Tavor, here is an INDEPENDENT review from a long time AR 10/M 14/AR 15 guy.
Executive Summary:
I liked the TAVOR for what it is ....
FUGLY little dwarf with some serious bad attitude!
AND, best of all, it is street legal.
TAVOR Evaluation:
As usual,
YMMV
***************************************************
Initial impression:
After lusting after the Tavor ever since it came out, my initial hands on impression was not disappointing. I liked the Tavor very much, but handling the Tavor immediately made one thing obvious - for users experienced with other systems, familiarisation with this firearm does require relearning/unlearning a different manual of arms, and retraining muscle memory.
1.] One major issue with most other bullpup designs, is the trigger. The Tavor trigger is long on initial takeup, heavy, but fairly crisp in final disengagement. It certainly ain't "target" or "sniper" quality, but for a tactical CQB role, it works. I found my first few slow fire shots "interesting" , but then I just forgot about the trigger entirely ... which is a BIG compliment to the Tavor. If you can put up with a Glock trigger then you can put up with the Tavor.
2.] Double taps were NOT instinctive for me at first. The weight of the Tavor is all at the back, so when I tried TRUE double taps [ first shot aimed, second shot following as fast as you can tickle the trigger ] the second round went high right. About 6 - 8 inches high/right at 15 yds. I can get faster/tighter DTs with an AR shorty. Of course this may improve with practice, and some of the other experienced shooters said they had no problems.
If I slowed down slightly, waited for the muzzle to come back down and used two AIMED [ flash sight picture ] shots, the pairs were much closer together, and the times did not seem to increase by much. If I bought one [ when I buy one? ] I would be thinking about porting the barrel, or screwing on some kind of compensator. Or hanging some weight out front [ Surefire light? ].
3.] Balance was “different”, but after a few shots it felt good. The weight felt right between the hands, and the Tavor was quick to shoulder.
4.] While it takes some getting used to, the concept of putting the magazine BEHIND the pistol grip is doable. Remembering exactly where the bolt release is located was also a challenge at first. There is nothing inherently “wrong” about the controls, they are just “different”. After a few mag changes, I was coming around, and I think that practice is all it would take to get used to the new arrangement.
5.] The Tavor was made available for several users to shoot, either in a match, against the clock, or just for giggles afterwards. The only reliability issues encountered were magazine related, when some 5/30 mags pinned a bit too short, did not allow full insertion with the bolt forward. Testing was done only at the quick and dirty stuff, with multiple shooters, varied lot of ammunition, and whatever mags the competitors had handy. Other wise, as to be expected from Israeli designed and proven gear, the Tavor turned in a flawless performance.
Bottom Line:
Would I get one? As soon as they are available, YES!
Would I recommend this firearm to others …
perhaps.
First of all, the Tavors are EXPENSIVE. You have to ask yourself, “do I really need a SERIOUS CQB firearm”. For those who can justify such an expenditure, the Tavor is no more expensive than any other real CQB contender.
However, if you have lots of time in with conventional firearms, budget for a lot of practice ammo to get you back up to speed. New users might actually have an advantage here, as they will not have to forget old patterns, while learning the new ones. Either way, for the CQB role this firearm was intended for, speed is the main reason for such a weapon, and to get this speed you will need to practice.
PS: anyone want to buy my BMW GS 1150 ...
or a few nice AR 15 poodle shooters?
[;{)
LAZ 1
... do some home renovations ...
apparently "she who must be obeyed" wants a new kitchen - [;{(
... upgrade my 2001 BMW 1150 GS for a newer BMW GS Adventure and hit the road for a few weeks -
{)... get me one of dem dere Tavor UGLY sticks ... [<:{)
I've built about three dozen AR 15 rifles, from 7" to 20" fluted Heavy barrel target, and right now I have FOUR of these silly poodle thingys hanging around my gun room. The AR 15 is a great gun, and I'll always have one [ wellll probably TWO, as one will be in .223 and the other will be in .300 Whisper ... or maybe three as one should be in .22 LR ... or maybe one lower and three uppers??? ].
The AR 15 platform is still one of the most versatile available, suitable for CQB right out to genuine long range target shooting. And with all the new caliber conversions available, it just keeps getting better and better. It is a mature complete system, with lots of modular options and accessories available to suit it too just about any role.
However,
last weekend I got to shoot a few mags out of the TAVOR [ Thanks Chris ]. For those who did not get a chance to shoot the Tavor, here is an INDEPENDENT review from a long time AR 10/M 14/AR 15 guy.
Executive Summary:
I liked the TAVOR for what it is ....
FUGLY little dwarf with some serious bad attitude!
AND, best of all, it is street legal.
TAVOR Evaluation:
As usual,
YMMV
***************************************************
Initial impression:
After lusting after the Tavor ever since it came out, my initial hands on impression was not disappointing. I liked the Tavor very much, but handling the Tavor immediately made one thing obvious - for users experienced with other systems, familiarisation with this firearm does require relearning/unlearning a different manual of arms, and retraining muscle memory.
1.] One major issue with most other bullpup designs, is the trigger. The Tavor trigger is long on initial takeup, heavy, but fairly crisp in final disengagement. It certainly ain't "target" or "sniper" quality, but for a tactical CQB role, it works. I found my first few slow fire shots "interesting" , but then I just forgot about the trigger entirely ... which is a BIG compliment to the Tavor. If you can put up with a Glock trigger then you can put up with the Tavor.
2.] Double taps were NOT instinctive for me at first. The weight of the Tavor is all at the back, so when I tried TRUE double taps [ first shot aimed, second shot following as fast as you can tickle the trigger ] the second round went high right. About 6 - 8 inches high/right at 15 yds. I can get faster/tighter DTs with an AR shorty. Of course this may improve with practice, and some of the other experienced shooters said they had no problems.
If I slowed down slightly, waited for the muzzle to come back down and used two AIMED [ flash sight picture ] shots, the pairs were much closer together, and the times did not seem to increase by much. If I bought one [ when I buy one? ] I would be thinking about porting the barrel, or screwing on some kind of compensator. Or hanging some weight out front [ Surefire light? ].
3.] Balance was “different”, but after a few shots it felt good. The weight felt right between the hands, and the Tavor was quick to shoulder.
4.] While it takes some getting used to, the concept of putting the magazine BEHIND the pistol grip is doable. Remembering exactly where the bolt release is located was also a challenge at first. There is nothing inherently “wrong” about the controls, they are just “different”. After a few mag changes, I was coming around, and I think that practice is all it would take to get used to the new arrangement.
5.] The Tavor was made available for several users to shoot, either in a match, against the clock, or just for giggles afterwards. The only reliability issues encountered were magazine related, when some 5/30 mags pinned a bit too short, did not allow full insertion with the bolt forward. Testing was done only at the quick and dirty stuff, with multiple shooters, varied lot of ammunition, and whatever mags the competitors had handy. Other wise, as to be expected from Israeli designed and proven gear, the Tavor turned in a flawless performance.
Bottom Line:
Would I get one? As soon as they are available, YES!
Would I recommend this firearm to others …
perhaps.
First of all, the Tavors are EXPENSIVE. You have to ask yourself, “do I really need a SERIOUS CQB firearm”. For those who can justify such an expenditure, the Tavor is no more expensive than any other real CQB contender.
However, if you have lots of time in with conventional firearms, budget for a lot of practice ammo to get you back up to speed. New users might actually have an advantage here, as they will not have to forget old patterns, while learning the new ones. Either way, for the CQB role this firearm was intended for, speed is the main reason for such a weapon, and to get this speed you will need to practice.
PS: anyone want to buy my BMW GS 1150 ...
or a few nice AR 15 poodle shooters?
[;{)
LAZ 1
