taylor knock out values

broadhead67

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I'm sure this had been talked to death somewhere on this site but i need a bit of help. A buddy asked me why i carry my 45/70 GG , he carries a tika 300 wm. I explained the whole heavy & slow bit = major knockout power . Well he laughed and said its nothing compared to the 300 winmag. So i started checking it out and found the TAYLOR KNOCKOUT VALUE system. Apperantly he was some great white hunter ,turn of the century guy that hunted and killed dam near everything . He developed a system for actual power based on
bullet weight
fps
bullet dia.
If i'm doing this right it seems with my 405 gr.travling @ 1800 fps. has considerably more knockout power than a 300 winmg. know i realize that at 250m & beyond the 45/70 drops like a lead ballon but out to there . very impressive.Anyone used this system? guess i should have tried to link it here.
 
John "Pondoro" Taylor was an intelligent individual who (among other things) worked out the "Knockout" system based on his wide experience and inquisitive mind.

It is an excellent system, and useful - so long as one uses it in the context for which it was intended. The Taylor scale awards no points for range or trajectory.

Within it's context it is hard to argue with the data. Taylor took his hunting experience and derived a formula which reflected his observations. When choosing a calibre for dangerous beasts the Taylor scale should not be ignored.

For most game on the North American continent, the knockout system is less useful. A 6 or 7mm bullet at modest velocity is all that is required to kill virtually all the game found here. The Taylor system does not forego the need for proper bullet placement, and the flatter trajectory of a lighter, faster bullet is a definite asset in many hunting situations - lower Taylor value or not.

So, yes, if I were being charged by a grizzly I would rather have the 45-70 than the .300 Mag., based on its higher knockout value. With either calibre, though, a well placed shot is both necessary and sufficient.


Sharptail
 
The context that the Taylor KO was intended was to try to predict how long a headshot elephant that the brain had been missed with solids would be knocked out. It didn't work for that, as the elephants couldn't read or tell time and failled to fall over on cue, got up when they wanted and otherwise laughed at his system.
He didn't even try to make it work with softs, freely stateing that velocity out-performed on soft tissue and that foot pounds of energy was a decent method of comparing that type of bullet. He also noted that the .375 and .416 performed better in practice than his system indicated, but didn't seem to make the connection that those two calibers were truckin' along quite a bit faster than the others in that class.
 
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There have been many mathematical formulas put forward over the years which attempt to reduce life to an equation. It doesn't work. What does work is choosing a round that provides a trajectory suitable for the range over which you intend to shoot, with a bullet that will function as it was designed, within an impact velocity window defined by the muzzle velocity at the high side and the velocity at your furthest intended range at the low side. A bullet that does not exit on a broadside shot may possibly fail on a frontal or quartering shot. An animal dies from a bullet wound when its brain cannot get enough oxygen to sustain life. The life support system of the animal is compromised with damage to the lungs or other major organs, by massive bleeding as oxygen to the brain is provided by the blood supply, or when the central nervous system itself is directly damaged resulting in a stoppage of heart or lung action or brain function. Sometimes game goes down as if the rug was pulled out from under it. Other times, game of a similar size can run long distances with a similar wound. The bullet path and performance are important considerations, but so is the condition of the animal, whether or not it is alert to danger, whether or not the lungs were expanded or deflated at the moment of bullet impact, and whether or not the heart was punctured or if the major blood vessels were cut off the top of it.

Ultimately someone asks the question, that given a certain set of circumstances which is better, the light and fast small bore bullet or the slower heavier big bore bullet. There are certain rules that must be adhered to if this question is to be answered in a realistic fashion. First is that for the purposes of the comparison the optimum bullets in each case are chosen. The light fast bullet is better at compensating for errors in range estimation. It can produce a wound out of scale in soft tissue due to the supersonic shock-wave that is created. On the negative side, much of the velocity can be used up quickly attempting to overcome the resistance of thick skin and fat and large bones. The short length for caliber of a light bullet can result in over expansion at high velocity and when the bullet no longer has a linear axis to rotate around, stability and straight line penetration are lost. A very fast bullet is likely to loose a larger percentage of its mass than is a slower heavier bullet. A loss of mass will cause the bullet to loose velocity more rapidly, resulting in a narrower, shallower wound. Whether or not this is enough to matter depends on the original weight on the bullet and the velocity of the impact.

The heavy slow hunting bullet seldom is made with a ballistically inefficient shape, and is therefore most useful at short to moderate ranges. Bullet drop over these short distances is unimportant so a bullet can be chosen which produces an optimum wound volume. The weight of the bullet is sufficient that little velocity is lost in the penetration of the skin, fat or even when a large bone is hit. The bullet is still super sonic, so there is a shock wave that disrupts soft tissue, but it will not cause as wide a wound compared as a ratio to the original diameter of the bullet, but it could be very well as wide or wider than the soft tissue damage of the small bore. Little percentage of the original bullet weight is lost due to the lower impact velocity, and for that reason there is not loss of penetration potential. Because expansion is more moderate, the bullet becomes nose heavy but the linear axis remains intact so straight line penetration is optimal for the impact velocity.
 
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perfect

many thx , this all goes along the same lines i was thinking, basicly out to a given distance, old n slow does have massive knock down power & realy can't compete with the hyper velocities down range.as always shot placement is king.
 
If you think a 45/70 has a lot of knock down power ask your self why it dosent knock you down too.Yer way better off selecting a bullet that will destroy organs and break bones than trying to kill animals with a formula.Shooting strait helps too.
 
In his book on the 45/70 B. Mitchell(a Canadian) lists Taylor K. O. values for heavily loaded 45/70s, and they exceed the .375 H & H and the .416 Rem., it's a good indicator because it doesn't take expansion into account. Expansion is erratic and on some big game animals it is not wanted.
 
The only valid way to compare performance of different bullets is to compare wound profiles in some sort of consistent media such as ballistic gelatin. Formulas aren't really very useful for this sort of thing.
 
One thing the taylor system does not touch on is the fact that even though the larger slow moving bullet has more energy it does not expand as much as a lighter faster bullet. Most people who i know that shoot a 45-70 say they gan eat right up to the hole,but when a 30-06 with a 150 silvertip hits a deer it leaves a hole you can stick your fist through, so if for some reason your shot isn't perfect the shock damage of a 06 is more likely to bring the game down.:sniper:
 
Biggest problem, as I see it, is that game animals do not read the charts and act according to the "supposed" values contained therein. Whether it be Taylor Knockout, ft-lbs of energy needed to reliably kill game of a given weight, or some other way of trying to indicate effectiveness of a given projectile at a given speed. Therefore, the charts are OK to peruse, but don't put too much faith in them. Put a reliable bullet into the vitals of a game animal at any sane distance, and shortly you will be dressing it. Regards, Eagleye
 
I use the Andy knock down scale, shoot the animal when it falls over you knocked it down. If it eats you before it falls over you did not knock it down fast enough.
 
The now famous 'shooting holes in wounding theories' ( http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html ) discusses how and why it's really almost impossible to come up with a 'formula' that accurately predicts the killing power of a round. Too many variables.

At best, things like kinetic energy, knockdown formulas, etc can offer a sort of 'general' comparison between relatively similar cartridges.

There's two sort of very general 'methods' that bullets use to be lethal.

Some create temporary wound cavities beyond their permanent ones to do damage. This requires high speed, good sectional density, good construction etc. "kinetic energy" is important to this method - that measures the bullet's ability to move mass out of it's way and do work. The 300 winmag would be an example. Big temporary wound cavity.

Others seek to push a large hole a long way thru an animal. They rely on larger calibre bullets at slower speeds to just keep moving and pushing a big fat plug out of the animal. Momentum is a better measure of comparison for that kind of cartridge. Momentum measures the ability of an object in motion to stay in motion despite resistance.

You can't really compare a 300 winmag and a 45/70 using simple math. The 300 win has more kinetic energy. The 45-70 has a great deal more momentum "energy".

They don't do their job the same way.
 
I've never believed in "knockdown" power in the purest sense. Any cartridge that is honestly going to "Knock down" a 1400 lb moose is going to kill the 200 lb human on the other end of the cartridge.

An animal dropping in it's tracks from a CNS shot, or broken front shoulders, or something like that, has not been "knocked down" by pure energy. It has merely succumb to the structural damage that it has taken, whether it took that damage from a fast-light or a slow-heavy bullet does not seem to make any difference in real life.
 
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