Mumbles Marble Mouth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Lower Mainland
Okay different question. Would you hunt deer with a .44mag?
The 223 as a viable big game round.
- Thread starter chuck nelson
- Start date
Jordan Weber
Member
- Location
- Elmira Ontario
If I met a man who told me he could pull a 20 foot enclosed trailer with his mini-cooper, I would probably beleive him. But at the end of the conversation I would probably ask him why he wasnt using the pickup truck in his driveway.
Get where Im going with this?
Get where Im going with this?
What's wrong with that?...Oh, wait....an "enclosed" 20 foot trailer???? WTH does that have to do with the price of tea in China? 5.56 or .223 is a killer on deer and unless you have seen a few shot in the front half with one, you are not qualified to make an opinion. Anyone who has shot a deer and hit it in the vitals at a reasonable range(which we should all be doing) with a 5.56 knows what the results will be. My only worry with a relatively fast and light bullet is glancing off a twig in the woods. 5.56 is cheap to shoot(comparatively) and does not have much recoil, so, accuracy is almost guaranteed.
I use a .270 when shots will probably be over 100 yards, 5.56 for under 100 yards and relatively open terrain and a 12 gauge pump with 00 buck for sneaking through the swamp. All of which I consider perfect for the job.
I use a .270 when shots will probably be over 100 yards, 5.56 for under 100 yards and relatively open terrain and a 12 gauge pump with 00 buck for sneaking through the swamp. All of which I consider perfect for the job.
No.lol. Depends on what part of my property that I hunt. If the wind is strong enough and from the right direction, I sneak through the thick stuff with my 12 gauge. If I sit in my tree stand, I use the .270 and If I am out bbqing and one decides to walk through the pasture behind my house, the mini 14 is at the ready. The right tool for the right job.
Mumbles Marble Mouth
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Lower Mainland
The only reason why I ask if people would hunt deer with a 32-20 then after 44mag is because the 32-20 was praised to be an excellent small game and deer cartridge by William Lyman. The 44mag is also widely used for wilderness protection against the big bear. However the .223 has nearly 4x the energy the 32-20 has and the .223 also has about 20% more energy than a .44mag. The .223 penetration capabilities is even better than the 7.62x39. With those things considered, why would people still feel the .223 is not enough for deer? Because feelings is all it is and feeling is the base for nearly everyone’s choice of big game cartridge.
Oh, that sounds like a dare. Bullets would have to be apples to apples and since we are taking about medium game, no FMJ's.
44mag most commonly shoots a 240gr and heavier bullet it has something called momentum and a wide meplate that is known to give large wound channels working for it.
Elmer Kieth the father of the 44mag was known to have killed a wounded buck at 600 yards with his.
You can't even remotely compare the performance of a slow heavy bullet to a light med/fast bullet its like comparing apples to watermelons.
Its not just feelings that make people decide what is appropriate for them many here have actual experiences with shooting game with small .224 cal bullets.
I've shot 15 - 20 deer with a 22-250 loaded with 55gr Sierra Varminter bullets @ 3660fps but I was able to pick my shots and would not have taken them if everything wasn't perfect my 22-250 is only used for coyote and wolf hunting now.
Why because I have far better deer combo's available to me why would I limit myself?
Smallest cartridge I hunt deer with now is my 6.8SPC loaded with 95gr TTSX @ 2880fps in my 19" barreled T/C Contender carbine and 3000fps in my 22" barreled Rem 700 LTR these were specifically designed for the velocities of the 6.8SPC cartridge by Barnes for the designers of the cartridge I also load 110gr Accubonds they are closer to 2700fps.
The key is bullet diameter step up a bit in the case of my 6.8 = .277 cal and you step up in killing performance its not a magic formula it just is what it is.
If a 223 turns your crank by all means use it I couldn't care less but I would class it more of an experts deer cartridge than a entry level kids cartridge.
Elmer Kieth the father of the 44mag was known to have killed a wounded buck at 600 yards with his.
You can't even remotely compare the performance of a slow heavy bullet to a light med/fast bullet its like comparing apples to watermelons.
Its not just feelings that make people decide what is appropriate for them many here have actual experiences with shooting game with small .224 cal bullets.
I've shot 15 - 20 deer with a 22-250 loaded with 55gr Sierra Varminter bullets @ 3660fps but I was able to pick my shots and would not have taken them if everything wasn't perfect my 22-250 is only used for coyote and wolf hunting now.
Why because I have far better deer combo's available to me why would I limit myself?
Smallest cartridge I hunt deer with now is my 6.8SPC loaded with 95gr TTSX @ 2880fps in my 19" barreled T/C Contender carbine and 3000fps in my 22" barreled Rem 700 LTR these were specifically designed for the velocities of the 6.8SPC cartridge by Barnes for the designers of the cartridge I also load 110gr Accubonds they are closer to 2700fps.
The key is bullet diameter step up a bit in the case of my 6.8 = .277 cal and you step up in killing performance its not a magic formula it just is what it is.
If a 223 turns your crank by all means use it I couldn't care less but I would class it more of an experts deer cartridge than a entry level kids cartridge.
- Location
- British Canuckistan
I'd love to see a .223 with a 123g bullet! it would struggle to reach the muzzle and then fall out and hit the ground in exhaustion!*
*(kidding of course, for those of you with defective sarcasm detectors)
*(kidding of course, for those of you with defective sarcasm detectors)
rifleman762
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
That would actually be very interesting, especially with like-for-like bullets. If someone could test TTSX bullets as well as cup and core softnose spitzer bullets (ideally same brand like Hornady). The x39 has the advantage of slightly less velocity (helps the bullet stay together) and heavier weight but the 223 will have better sectional density. 60-70gr 223 vs 123gr 7.62x39 - normal weight hunting bullets. Has this sort of test been done and posted on the internet? I've seen an FMJ test before but that's irrelevant.
Deer Culling with a .222
I've watched this thread for a bit, its pretty much turned out, the same as the Alberta outdoors threads on the same subject, Members are very polarised, on this issue esp. it seams, those who haven't used a .223 on big game,
25-30 years ago, I used a .222 culling/ meat hunting, thousands, of goats and deer, never lost a deer, but occasionally had to shoot again, can't speak for results on goats, as it's a lot harder to keep track of a mob of 30-50 goats, when you let rip into them, I am sure I wounded and lost a few,
With the right bullet, carefully shot placement, sensible ranges, on smaller big game,(200lbs down) the .222/.223 biased cartridges will get the job done, I've shot a few deer with the .22mag and one with a .17 fireball,
as that's what I had in my hands when the opportunity arose.
I found soft points especially from Norma, and Sako preformed and penetrated well, Much of the American ammo aviable at the time, was varmint and thus poor performance.
I mostly limited my shooting to 100m, but would stretch out to 200 on goats, and a big red stag, (500lbs or more) 50m or less,
I still have that Sako vixen,
it's likely shot over 5000 deer/goats, (not all by me)
Now my light rifle in New Zealand is a Cooper 6x45(.223)with 80 gr or 85gr used on deer, goats get a 75gr Hollow point.
How much performance, there is between a .223 fast twist and the 6x45/ 6PPC class with a 70-80 gr, I don't know, likely not much, More deer suitable bullet choices in .243 thought.
I let you know, when I get my .223 back to New Zealand in 12 months or so, I've got mates shooting the 75 Eld, and 63 & 65 gr Serria, 70 gr Speer, 60 partion, with good results on red deer. I am doing load development with the 75ge ELD at present, If they don't work out I will try the 75gr Swift Scirocco, as I know of one guy, using them with outstanding results.
There is a great many more, good choices in .224 Cal bullets than, I had aviable 25-30 years ago,
All the 6mm, are much better choices, and I think for most regular hunters, this is a sensible place, for a light big game rifle,
I've watched this thread for a bit, its pretty much turned out, the same as the Alberta outdoors threads on the same subject, Members are very polarised, on this issue esp. it seams, those who haven't used a .223 on big game,
25-30 years ago, I used a .222 culling/ meat hunting, thousands, of goats and deer, never lost a deer, but occasionally had to shoot again, can't speak for results on goats, as it's a lot harder to keep track of a mob of 30-50 goats, when you let rip into them, I am sure I wounded and lost a few,
With the right bullet, carefully shot placement, sensible ranges, on smaller big game,(200lbs down) the .222/.223 biased cartridges will get the job done, I've shot a few deer with the .22mag and one with a .17 fireball,
as that's what I had in my hands when the opportunity arose. I found soft points especially from Norma, and Sako preformed and penetrated well, Much of the American ammo aviable at the time, was varmint and thus poor performance.
I mostly limited my shooting to 100m, but would stretch out to 200 on goats, and a big red stag, (500lbs or more) 50m or less,
I still have that Sako vixen,
it's likely shot over 5000 deer/goats, (not all by me)Now my light rifle in New Zealand is a Cooper 6x45(.223)
with 80 gr or 85gr used on deer, goats get a 75gr Hollow point.How much performance, there is between a .223 fast twist and the 6x45/ 6PPC class with a 70-80 gr, I don't know, likely not much, More deer suitable bullet choices in .243 thought.
I let you know, when I get my .223 back to New Zealand in 12 months or so, I've got mates shooting the 75 Eld, and 63 & 65 gr Serria, 70 gr Speer, 60 partion, with good results on red deer. I am doing load development with the 75ge ELD at present, If they don't work out I will try the 75gr Swift Scirocco, as I know of one guy, using them with outstanding results.
There is a great many more, good choices in .224 Cal bullets than, I had aviable 25-30 years ago,
All the 6mm, are much better choices, and I think for most regular hunters, this is a sensible place, for a light big game rifle,
The Myth: The .223 is too Light for Deer
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2011/5/20/the-myth-the-223-is-too-light-for-deer/
The Myth
The .223 is too light for deer.
The Facts
I read somewhere that today’s premium bullets represent the greatest advance in big game hunting technology since the widespread use of the optical sight, and I agree 100 percent. Many of the myths that we face today are the product of outdated truth—what your grandfather or Elmer Keith said 50 years ago may not be true today. The fact is that today’s premium bullets penetrate deeper, expand more reliably and stay together better than ever before. This has been a game-changer for small calibers (note the resurgence in the .243 Winchester). It’s not that the laws of physics or reason no longer apply, but the fact is that bullet technology has readjusted the scale of which calibers are appropriate for what game. Thanks to these advances, .224 caliber bullets are no longer designed with either varmints or Soviet infantry in-mind. Let’s take a look at factory ammo.
Federal Premium alone lists four factory loads appropriate for deer-sized game, I’m not talking FMJ behind the ear appropriate either—these are legitimate, put-it-on-the-shoulder big game bullets. All of these bullets should shoot well without the need of the fast-twist barrels necessary for the longer, heavier (and excellent) .224 bullets on the market. I’ve personally used three of these bullets in various loads on management whitetails and a truckload of feral hogs—none of them lived to tell about it.
I asked around for some opinions based on more than anecdotal experience. As always, I found a public relations professional willing to answer some questions.
“We would agree that there are adequate loads/bullets for humanely taking deer with the .223,” said Tim Brandt, Federal Premium Public Relations Manager. “We have several .223 loads featuring a couple different bullet options that are designed especially for hunting. Our Fusion line is great example. We see excellent weight retention, expansion and penetration from this bullet in the .223 platform. Hunters that live in areas where it’s legal to use this caliber should have no problem finding an effective load to take into the deer stand.”
Tim also included the following test data, which shows that the average Fusion bullet penetrated nearly 15 inches of gelatin and expanded to .54 caliber. Most of a bullet’s expansion happens within the first inch or so of penetration which means that the Fusion load effectively sends a .54 caliber ball through the vitals of its intended target. I observed recent tests of the DoubleTap load with similar results.
One of NRA’s contracted experts, Richard Mann, helped develop the Bullet Test tube. (It’s slightly harder material than the gelatin used in Federal’s test.) Mann tested Federal’s loads in it and on deer, and here’s what he found:
“The .223 Remington is a suitable cartridge for hunting deer, within its limitation. This cartridge relies on velocity to drive the lightweight bullets deep. This same velocity contributes to tissue damage. The key to using a .223 Remington on deer is to keep impact velocities high. In other words don't shoot deer much beyond 150 yards. Past that distance, the velocity drops below the level needed for dynamic bullet expansion. When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.”
Ok, so we heard from the nerds in the lab coats, what do the guys that shoot deer for a living think? My friend John Shaw has killed more deer than anyone I know—he’s managed an exotic game farm, worked on a Texas whitetail ranch, passionately hunts whitetail in numerous states using the .224 and .22-250. He has also culled scores of does for meat, depredation, and management purposes. John has this to say:
“I rely on my 22 centerfires more so than any other caliber. Low recoil and the typical pinpoint accuracy found in rifles of .224 caliber allow for careful shot placement. If you treat hunting with your .223 much like bow hunting and wait for the perfect shot, there is no reason that this caliber should not be considered for many applications. However, bullet choice is a major factor. Shots to the central nervous system with any type of bullet will work but I recommend premium, controlled expansion bullets, such as Barnes Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions, and Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Typically, I keep shots under 200 yards but animals hit in the shoulder, heart, and lung region with a quality bullet expire quickly."
The Conclusion
I’m not saying the .223 is the perfect whitetail bullet, I wouldn’t pack it on a trophy hunt or where long shots were likely but, with the right bullet, it is a legitimate choice for some big game animals. With big game bullets ranging in weight from 55gr. to 70gr., it’s versatile at a range of velocities.
https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2011/5/20/the-myth-the-223-is-too-light-for-deer/
The Myth
The .223 is too light for deer.
The Facts
I read somewhere that today’s premium bullets represent the greatest advance in big game hunting technology since the widespread use of the optical sight, and I agree 100 percent. Many of the myths that we face today are the product of outdated truth—what your grandfather or Elmer Keith said 50 years ago may not be true today. The fact is that today’s premium bullets penetrate deeper, expand more reliably and stay together better than ever before. This has been a game-changer for small calibers (note the resurgence in the .243 Winchester). It’s not that the laws of physics or reason no longer apply, but the fact is that bullet technology has readjusted the scale of which calibers are appropriate for what game. Thanks to these advances, .224 caliber bullets are no longer designed with either varmints or Soviet infantry in-mind. Let’s take a look at factory ammo.
Federal Premium alone lists four factory loads appropriate for deer-sized game, I’m not talking FMJ behind the ear appropriate either—these are legitimate, put-it-on-the-shoulder big game bullets. All of these bullets should shoot well without the need of the fast-twist barrels necessary for the longer, heavier (and excellent) .224 bullets on the market. I’ve personally used three of these bullets in various loads on management whitetails and a truckload of feral hogs—none of them lived to tell about it.
I asked around for some opinions based on more than anecdotal experience. As always, I found a public relations professional willing to answer some questions.
“We would agree that there are adequate loads/bullets for humanely taking deer with the .223,” said Tim Brandt, Federal Premium Public Relations Manager. “We have several .223 loads featuring a couple different bullet options that are designed especially for hunting. Our Fusion line is great example. We see excellent weight retention, expansion and penetration from this bullet in the .223 platform. Hunters that live in areas where it’s legal to use this caliber should have no problem finding an effective load to take into the deer stand.”
Tim also included the following test data, which shows that the average Fusion bullet penetrated nearly 15 inches of gelatin and expanded to .54 caliber. Most of a bullet’s expansion happens within the first inch or so of penetration which means that the Fusion load effectively sends a .54 caliber ball through the vitals of its intended target. I observed recent tests of the DoubleTap load with similar results.
One of NRA’s contracted experts, Richard Mann, helped develop the Bullet Test tube. (It’s slightly harder material than the gelatin used in Federal’s test.) Mann tested Federal’s loads in it and on deer, and here’s what he found:
“The .223 Remington is a suitable cartridge for hunting deer, within its limitation. This cartridge relies on velocity to drive the lightweight bullets deep. This same velocity contributes to tissue damage. The key to using a .223 Remington on deer is to keep impact velocities high. In other words don't shoot deer much beyond 150 yards. Past that distance, the velocity drops below the level needed for dynamic bullet expansion. When robustly constructed bullets like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition and Fusion are used inside 150 yards, penetration with the .223 Remington is on par with cartridges like the .243 and the .30-30 Winchester.”
Ok, so we heard from the nerds in the lab coats, what do the guys that shoot deer for a living think? My friend John Shaw has killed more deer than anyone I know—he’s managed an exotic game farm, worked on a Texas whitetail ranch, passionately hunts whitetail in numerous states using the .224 and .22-250. He has also culled scores of does for meat, depredation, and management purposes. John has this to say:
“I rely on my 22 centerfires more so than any other caliber. Low recoil and the typical pinpoint accuracy found in rifles of .224 caliber allow for careful shot placement. If you treat hunting with your .223 much like bow hunting and wait for the perfect shot, there is no reason that this caliber should not be considered for many applications. However, bullet choice is a major factor. Shots to the central nervous system with any type of bullet will work but I recommend premium, controlled expansion bullets, such as Barnes Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions, and Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. Typically, I keep shots under 200 yards but animals hit in the shoulder, heart, and lung region with a quality bullet expire quickly."
The Conclusion
I’m not saying the .223 is the perfect whitetail bullet, I wouldn’t pack it on a trophy hunt or where long shots were likely but, with the right bullet, it is a legitimate choice for some big game animals. With big game bullets ranging in weight from 55gr. to 70gr., it’s versatile at a range of velocities.
From a guy who lives in Northern BC where a big buck can be 350lbs on the hoof, I have several 223/223AI's, and I often choose a 223 for a first choice deer rifle. I definitely choose it for the kids as their first choice to ensure that bullets go where they are supposed to when the trigger breaks. My "intermediate range" rifles for deer are usually 223AI's with 75gr Amaxs, and my "longer range" deer rifle is a 243AI with a 105 Amax. I have zero worries about killing any B&C class deer that walk out to MY effective range with any of those rifles.
My daughter cranked a good whitetail last fall at -25*C, waiting with the gun over the sticks on a buck at 177 yards. I had her waiting for the buck to turn broadside for 20(?) minutes or so, but he knew we were there and he was staring hard. She said "Daddy, my hands are getting cold. Can't I just shoot him in the throat?" Before I was done saying "If you think you can hit... BANG-WHOCK-FLOP....him in the white patch......." About 15" of penetration through his vertebrae with a 50gr GMX. Drilled a straight line about a half inch over from the spinal cord. Interesting thing, I shot a bull elk with the same presentation (albeit about 50 yards closer) a couple years ago with a 300WM and a 180 sp. About the quintessential elk load, for the last few decades.... I don't think anyone would argue that a 300WM/180gr bullet isn't adequate elk medicine. Guess how much penetration there was with that bullet..... About the same.
Other kid shot one quartering in at 100 yards, in through the on side shoulder, and smashed 4 ribs on the offside with the bullet behind the last rib under the hide. Same 223 with 50gr GMX.
Her mom shot one in the same spot, with the same presentation, at the same distance, with her 7/08 and a 139gr SST. Same smashed shoulder and ruined lungs, but that bullet didn't make it all the way through the offside rib cage. Is the 7/08 not big enough for deer??? Identical damage to the vitals and shoulder, just less penetration with the 7/08, likely due to less velocity I suppose........... My kids are instructed to break bones and shoot for the ball between the front legs. Hasn't failed any of them yet. Mind you, they are set up for success with good bullets in an accurate rifle with enough practice to be proficient at the ranges they are shooting.
At what point does enough gun become enough though? What makes it "enough"? Enough velocity to ensure bullet upset? Enough construction to ensure you get to the vitals? Enough damage to the vitals to ensure a quick death? Use an appropriate bullet, at an appropriate speed, and look at the damage you create to vitals.
Cartridges are a lot more alike than they are different, and flesh and bone is still the same. Put a good bullet where it is supposed to go, and good things happen. It doesn't get any simpler than that. Use a good enough bullet to get to the vitals, and stuff dies. Not many deer can shake off a one inch hole through their lungs with a broken front leg.
Until you get to the wide ends of the cartridge spectrum you don't really see much difference in terminal effects. Mind you, I personally don't think that you can compensate for poor marksmanship with cartridge capacity.
Bullets matter more than headstamps. The bullet is the only interaction you have with a game animal. Choose appropriately.
YMMV.
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prairie lover
CGN Regular
- Location
- southern MB
ive shot deer back when I had only one gun with less than a 223. a 204 ruger with a 39 gr sierra blitzking at 3800 fps. this bullet will not penetrate a broadside coyote. put it in the white patch and death is instantaneous. I shot one 4x4 buck behind the shoulder lung shot. 120 yards, he ran 40 yards and piled up.
I know for a fact that my 223 loaded with a 55 gr sierra gameking(1365) would be a better choice than any varmint bullet in 204 or 223, I would not hesitate putting one in a bucks lungs out to 300 yards. I look for every bullet that stays in an animal and measure penetration and note damage. I know the sierra 55 gr sp will give over a foot length wise on a coyote so I imagine on a deers rib gave it would either exit or be under the hide far side.
however these days if im deer hunting its a 270, 3006 or 7mm mag. any angle any range out to a long ways the deer is mine. I use a 243 with 85 to 100 gr bullets when I am more coyote hunting than deer but the opportunity of a nice buck may present itself.
last fall I put a 130 gr accubond from a 270 win leaving the barrel at 3050 fps into a big bodied bucks neck, right where it leaves the body, 2 inches in front of the shoulder blades. 120 yards. it was the only shot I had, the other vitals were behind brush. imagine my surprise when i found the bullet under the hide far side. It did center the spine destroying a good chunk, the spine must be a hell of a bullet stopper. i am not sure how my 223 would have done in this instance.
I know for a fact that my 223 loaded with a 55 gr sierra gameking(1365) would be a better choice than any varmint bullet in 204 or 223, I would not hesitate putting one in a bucks lungs out to 300 yards. I look for every bullet that stays in an animal and measure penetration and note damage. I know the sierra 55 gr sp will give over a foot length wise on a coyote so I imagine on a deers rib gave it would either exit or be under the hide far side.
however these days if im deer hunting its a 270, 3006 or 7mm mag. any angle any range out to a long ways the deer is mine. I use a 243 with 85 to 100 gr bullets when I am more coyote hunting than deer but the opportunity of a nice buck may present itself.
last fall I put a 130 gr accubond from a 270 win leaving the barrel at 3050 fps into a big bodied bucks neck, right where it leaves the body, 2 inches in front of the shoulder blades. 120 yards. it was the only shot I had, the other vitals were behind brush. imagine my surprise when i found the bullet under the hide far side. It did center the spine destroying a good chunk, the spine must be a hell of a bullet stopper. i am not sure how my 223 would have done in this instance.
