The AR-15 still rules

RevolverRodger

RevolverRodger

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Location
Somewhere in QC
I have shot the following black rifles (mine or friends) and each one has advantages and disadvantages... Overall I much prefr the AR platform.
From best to worst (in my humble opinion)

1-AR-15 11.5'' / 14.5'' / 20''
Accuracy: Very good accuracy with this rifle
Ergonomics: Everything is positioned where it should be. Perfect
Ruggedness: Tough, made of hard aluminium
Weight: Average
Fieldstrip: Easy and fast.

2-Sig black special rifle
Accuracy: Great. Extremely accurate
Ergonomics: Average. Charging handle on the wrong side. Controls are not so easy to use compared to the AR.
Ruggedness: Extremely tough. Built like a tank
Weight: Heavy... But in a good way
Fieldstrip: Longer than other rifles. Not so user friendly

3-VZ-58
Accuracy: Pretty damn good for a commi-klunker
Ergonomics: Same problems as the Sig
Ruggedness: Vry tough design
Weight: Average
Fieldstrip: Pretty easy to do. I like the simple design

4-Norinco M-14
Accuracy:Average. I guess it can be improved with some upgrades
Ergonomics: Old school. Don't like the stock. Charging handle on the wrong side.
Ruggedness: Looks rugged but had a few stoppags with a friends rifle.
Weight: Heavy
Fieldstrip: Not very user friendly

5-Tavor
Accuracy: Pretty good accuracy
Ergonomics: I hate how the rifle is designed. I guess bullpup rifles aren't for me. Reload is slow
Ruggedness: Plastic... I'm not sure I like that in a rifle
Weight: Light
Fieldstrip: Didn't get a chance to field strip one yet.

So how would you guys rate the black rifles you shot ?
 
Ergonomics: I hate how the rifle is designed. I guess bullpup rifles aren't for me. Reload is slow
Click to expand...

As one of the people waiting to jump on the type 97 bandwagon after they ship out (stupid Olympics) I am anxious about the bullpup thing as well.

It is an issue of muscle memory though, so even if it seems unnatural now I should be able to overcome it. Get enough repetition and it should become second nature to reload. This video with the FS200 inspires me:

ht tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3GR6XvOSfk
 
1st. AR15 (shot 16" and 20"). I've owned Norinco CQ311 up to Colt LE6920. Always pleased with an AR15. I like my ARs basically stock, so I think the weight is just fantastic. Ergonomics are great too.

2nd. M14, doesn't take much to turn an average rifle into a great semi-auto tack driver. Stock weight is a bit of a draw back though.

3rd. VZ58 Cheap rifle, average accuracy, loses its lustre in short order when you shoot AR15s and M14s. Weight is good, ergonomics are good, but cheap is cheap.
 
I've got an AR, little bushmaster with 16" barrel, its fun, but not as much as the M14/SIG PE90 or even the CZ-858
 
Own a Colt AR. Have shot the Black Special. If I can own both, I'd do it. Different guns for different usages.
 
mr_trout said:
As one of the people waiting to jump on the type 97 bandwagon after they ship out (stupid Olympics) I am anxious about the bullpup thing as well.

It is an issue of muscle memory though, so even if it seems unnatural now I should be able to overcome it. Get enough repetition and it should become second nature to reload. This video with the FS200 inspires me
Click to expand...
mr_trout said:
The reload is doable, but is it doable with hard armor and a LBV on, how about a heavy winter coat? My biggest complaint with any bullpup rifle is the fixed length of pull. There's a reason collapsible stocks are the norm now, and its not because Chuck Norris likes them. The other big issue is the inability to fire the rifle from your offhand side without eating brass.

TDC
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RevolverRodger said:
Good point TDC.
They should work on adjustable pull bulpup rifles
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That I would like to see. I don't think its possible. Personally, the advantage of the 20" barrel in a compact package isn't much of a gain. A 16" barrel will achieve nearly identical ballistic performance of a 20" barrel. If inside work is the order of the day, run an 11". The loss in performance is negligible at the ranges found inside most structures.

There's too many problems that are not being solved by the bullpup design to welcome it with open arms.

TDC
 
mr_trout said:
As one of the people waiting to jump on the type 97 bandwagon after they ship out (stupid Olympics) I am anxious about the bullpup thing as well.

It is an issue of muscle memory though, so even if it seems unnatural now I should be able to overcome it. Get enough repetition and it should become second nature to reload. This video with the FS200 inspires me:

ht tp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3GR6XvOSfk
Click to expand...

Bullpups suck.

How ya gonna butt stroke?

:)

Neal
 
RevolverRodger said:
I have shot the following black rifles (mine or friends) and each one has advantages and disadvantages... Overall I much prefr the AR platform.
From best to worst (in my humble opinion)

1-AR-15 11.5'' / 14.5'' / 20''
Accuracy: Very good accuracy with this rifle
Ergonomics: Everything is positioned where it should be. Perfect
Ruggedness: Tough, made of hard aluminium
Weight: Average
Fieldstrip: Easy and fast.

2-Sig black special rifle
Accuracy: Great. Extremely accurate
Ergonomics: Average. Charging handle on the wrong side. Controls are not so easy to use compared to the AR.
Ruggedness: Extremely tough. Built like a tank
Weight: Heavy... But in a good way
Fieldstrip: Longer than other rifles. Not so user friendly

So how would you guys rate the black rifles you shot ?
Click to expand...

Having done quite some army time with a rifle close to what you guys can get I can say:

AR15:
ergonomics: why can't I engage the safety when the hammer is down?
charging handle is rather weird to handle, not ambidextrous

SIG:
ergonomics: charging handle on the wrong side, requires different handling when an optic is mounted.


in short: it all comes down to training.
 
Kampfhamster said:
Having done quite some army time with a rifle close to what you guys can get I can say:

AR15:
ergonomics: why can't I engage the safety when the hammer is down?
charging handle is rather weird to handle, not ambidextrous

SIG:
ergonomics: charging handle on the wrong side, requires different handling when an optic is mounted.


in short: it all comes down to training.
Click to expand...


The function of the safety is dependent on the position of the sear/trigger. In any event, who cares?? The charge handle isn't ideal for lefties but it can be done with as much speed as a right handed shooter. The side mounted charge handles like the SIG or AK can be accessed over the top or underneath by the support hand.

TDC
 
The reload is doable, but is it doable with hard armor and a LBV on, how about a heavy winter coat?
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Very true. The guy in the video with the FS2000 lives in a warm place, but I don't. My fall jacket, no problem, but a winter coat and I foresee a lot of swearing in my future. The reload still seems unnatural to me, but I figure I should give it a chance.

I am not interested in the 97a (or the Tavor) as a tactical rifle, but merely as a curiosity for my collection. It will get a lot of use at the range, and the reload may or may not annoy me but that is fine. I'll brush it off as a learning experience; "My first bullpup", and move on to the next gun that interests me.
 
TDC

Plenty of people care about the safety and it's ability to be applied regardless of the position of the hammer / sear. HK (exept the bastardized 416) and Swiss Arms guns can have their safety applied regardless of the position of the bolt / hammer / sear. This is important to users. I know it has been debated by some armchair types here but it is an important feature. When in a tactical enviroment and transitioning to a secondary weapon it is safer to apply the safety and have it go on. We had an incident in Alberta where a Tactical Team member was shot in the leg by a team member behind him in the stack, with an AR that was not put on safe when it was slung to perform another task. Having weapons that go on safe no matter what their load / bolt / sear condition is a safety advantage for operators in the real world.

This goes for the outdated 1911 pistol as well when compaired to say the HK USP series.

Rich
 
Yes I agree. I did a comparison between my M4 configured AR15 and my newly acquired Type 97.

The AR won hands down with the only 97 advantage really being compactness, longer barrel in a smaller package, and LCF (look cool factor).

In all practical considerations I far prefer the AR to the 97.
 
Rich LPS said:
TDC

Plenty of people care about the safety and it's ability to be applied regardless of the position of the hammer / sear. HK (exept the bastardized 416) and Swiss Arms guns can have their safety applied regardless of the position of the bolt / hammer / sear. This is important to users. I know it has been debated by some armchair types here but it is an important feature. When in a tactical enviroment and transitioning to a secondary weapon it is safer to apply the safety and have it go on. We had an incident in Alberta where a Tactical Team member was shot in the leg by a team member behind him in the stack, with an AR that was not put on safe when it was slung to perform another task. Having weapons that go on safe no matter what their load / bolt / sear condition is a safety advantage for operators in the real world.

This goes for the outdated 1911 pistol as well when compaired to say the HK USP series.

Rich
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If the rifle won't allow safe on the selector, don't worry about it. If the selector moves to safe, then it moves to safe. ND's are generally the souce of poor operators, not design flaws. Fingers on triggers cause firearms to function, whether that be at an appropriate time or not.

If you need to transition to your secondary you either A) had a failure with your rifle in which case it gets dropped on the sling and swept out of your way while drawing your secondary. In the event the threat is at an intermediate or "rifle distance you need to seek cover and fix the rifle. B) you've selected your secondary for a specific purpose and have the time to select safe and stow your rifle.

TDC
 
RevolverRodger said:
I have shot the following black rifles (mine or friends) and each one has advantages and disadvantages... Overall I much prefr the AR platform.
From best to worst (in my humble opinion)

1-AR-15 11.5'' / 14.5'' / 20''
Accuracy: Very good accuracy with this rifle
Ergonomics: Everything is positioned where it should be. Perfect
Ruggedness: Tough, made of hard aluminium
Weight: Average
Fieldstrip: Easy and fast.

2-Sig black special rifle
Accuracy: Great. Extremely accurate
Ergonomics: Average. Charging handle on the wrong side. Controls are not so easy to use compared to the AR.
Ruggedness: Extremely tough. Built like a tank
Weight: Heavy... But in a good way
Fieldstrip: Longer than other rifles. Not so user friendly

3-VZ-58
Accuracy: Pretty damn good for a commi-klunker
Ergonomics: Same problems as the Sig
Ruggedness: Vry tough design
Weight: Average
Fieldstrip: Pretty easy to do. I like the simple design

4-Norinco M-14
Accuracy:Average. I guess it can be improved with some upgrades
Ergonomics: Old school. Don't like the stock. Charging handle on the wrong side.
Ruggedness: Looks rugged but had a few stoppags with a friends rifle.
Weight: Heavy
Fieldstrip: Not very user friendly

5-Tavor
Accuracy: Pretty good accuracy
Ergonomics: I hate how the rifle is designed. I guess bullpup rifles aren't for me. Reload is slow
Ruggedness: Plastic... I'm not sure I like that in a rifle
Weight: Light
Fieldstrip: Didn't get a chance to field strip one yet.

So how would you guys rate the black rifles you shot ?
Click to expand...


I don't know if I would agree that field stripping is not user friendly. For field cleaning there is very little difference between the AR and the SAN rifles. Push out take down pin, remove bolt/carrier assembly from rear of receiver. The SAN rifle requires that you pull out the charging handle first which is hardly a major chore.
 
As far as I'm concerned, the safety is unneccesary. If I have a round chambered, I'm firing, if I'm not firing, there are no rounds in the gun. I do not ever plan on cocking a gun and then acting like it's safe, thats how people get hurt. On that note, unless I inspect the chamber visually, it's a loaded gun. I've seen close calls based on the "safety" of "loaded" and "unloaded" guns. I do like my ar. I was a russki lover (I still am ;) but the ar has it charms. I think the weight, ergonomics and accuracy just won me over...
 
5440fight said:
As far as I'm concerned, the safety is unneccesary. If I have a round chambered, I'm firing, if I'm not firing, there are no rounds in the gun. I do not ever plan on cocking a gun and then acting like it's safe, thats how people get hurt. On that note, unless I inspect the chamber visually, it's a loaded gun. I've seen close calls based on the "safety" of "loaded" and "unloaded" guns. I do like my ar. I was a russki lover (I still am ;) but the ar has it charms. I think the weight, ergonomics and accuracy just won me over...
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All firearms are ALWAYS loaded. Remember that and act accordingly and no one dies. As far as safeties go. When the sights are on target(target being something you wish to destroy) the safety comes off. When the sights are not on target, the safety is on.

Sights on target=safety off
Sights off target=safety on

With regards to the COP who shot another officer with the rifle a few months back. What part of "Don't point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy" and "keep your finger off the trigger until you're sights are on target and you're ready to shoot" did he not understand???

By adhering to the simple rule for operating your safety outlined above and a FIRM grasp of the fundamental rules of firearms safety. There would be one less shot cop and one less retard with a badge and access to firearms.

The sh*t between your ears is the best safety mechanism going. Some people should really use it more often.

TDC
 
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