The AR-15 still rules

If your worried about the safety - rack the action - put it on safe and carry it that way...
The US Army does it that way.

However TDC was 100% right -- IF the M4/AR wont go on safe - then its is not cocked and a round is not chambered.

I run my guns on safe - regardless if its hot or not...

1911's will NEVER be outdated - your a heretic Rich ;)

M14 --- position of the SAFETY is a HUGE liability...
 
KevinB said:
If your worried about the safety - rack the action - put it on safe and carry it that way...
The US Army does it that way.

However TDC was 100% right -- IF the M4/AR wont go on safe - then its is not cocked and a round is not chambered.

I run my guns on safe - regardless if its hot or not...

1911's will NEVER be outdated - your a heretic Rich ;)

M14 --- position of the SAFETY is a HUGE liability...
Click to expand...

Or you dropped the hammer on a bad round:cool:

TDC
 
TDC,

Thanks for the Tactical Tips, I'm not sure I could attend another Tactical call without your help. From your rant about "retard cops" I take it you don't like Police Officers. You're entitled to your opinion.

With regards to the ERT Team incident there are many more details than I choose to share with you. (The team was also fired upon while in a hallway by a suspect who shot a magnum pistol through a door at them.) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think you have ever used firearms operationally.

I was simply stating that in a high risk tactical enviroment being able to place your weapon on safe regardless of the condition of the bolt / sear / hammer is a safety advantage to an operator. HK and SAN have been very careful to incorporate this into the designs of their weapons. I helps to make Police Officers, of all skill levels, as well as the armchair types safer (although one usually never faces any danger). I will refrain from listing all of the possible circumstances when an operator would transition from his primary weapon. I don't want to bore others here.

Rich

Kevin has now embraced the 1911, his transformation to the USA is complete.
(Keep lot of parts and tools around Kevin, they are also like a purebred, be careful what you feed it. 1911's are the best hobby guns around haha... Long live the P226.)
 
TDC said:
That I would like to see. I don't think its possible. Personally, the advantage of the 20" barrel in a compact package isn't much of a gain. A 16" barrel will achieve nearly identical ballistic performance of a 20" barrel. If inside work is the order of the day, run an 11". The loss in performance is negligible at the ranges found inside most structures.

There's too many problems that are not being solved by the bullpup design to welcome it with open arms.

TDC
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I think the main benefit of the bullpup configuration is versatility. Since you can fit such a long barrel into such a compact rifle you get something that can be used in an room-clearing scenario, and then a few minutes later brought to bear at longer outdoor ranges with optimal bullet velocity. To do so with a standard rifle would require either a rifle/carbine combination or a modular platform with barrels interchanged between tasks (not always doable).
 
Rich LPS said:
TDC,

Thanks for the Tactical Tips, I'm not sure I could attend another Tactical call without your help. From your rant about "retard cops" I take it you don't like Police Officers. You're entitled to your opinion.

With regards to the ERT Team incident there are many more details than I choose to share with you. (The team was also fired upon while in a hallway by a suspect who shot a magnum pistol through a door at them.) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think you have ever used firearms operationally.

I was simply stating that in a high risk tactical enviroment being able to place your weapon on safe regardless of the condition of the bolt / sear / hammer is a safety advantage to an operator. HK and SAN have been very careful to incorporate this into the designs of their weapons. I helps to make Police Officers, of all skill levels, as well as the armchair types safer (although one usually never faces any danger). I will refrain from listing all of the possible circumstances when an operator would transition from his primary weapon. I don't want to bore others here.

Rich

Kevin has now embraced the 1911, his transformation to the USA is complete.
(Keep lot of parts and tools around Kevin, they are also like a purebred, be careful what you feed it. 1911's are the best hobby guns around haha... Long live the P226.)
Click to expand...

I have nothing against cops or any LEO for that matter. A good friend of mine is an LEO as are several family members. I dislike stupid people. I dislike stupid people with access to firearms even more. I will go out on a limb and admit I am not privy to all the details surrounding the officer who was shot. It is safe to say, someone wasn't minding their muzzle, and someone failed to use their safety/selector properly.

AS Kevin and I both pointed out, if the selector does not move to safe when you attempt to do so. Don't worry about it, there's no risk. If the selector moves to safe, GREAT! Its a training issue, not an equipment issue. In the case we're discussing had the operator had a SAN or HK he still would have been shot. The selector was not in the safe position. If I'm wrong, and the rifle fired with the selector in the safe position due to parts failure than I still chalk it up to operator error. Check your gear. Oh, and keep your finger off the trigger.

You indicate the officers had been fired upon. Pretty fair reason to believe you may need to return the favor. Again, as I pointed out earlier. Safety remains on when your sights are off the target. Finger remains off the trigger as well, until sights are on target and selector is moved to fire. So far I haven't mentioned anything that strictly pertains to the AR platform have I? I mean maybe the HK rifles operate differently, or is it the operator that makes the difference????

From what information I have, no rounds (other than the one fired when the officer was shot) were fired during the incident by LE. If this is the case than it would serve to reason that no opportunities presented themselves for an officer to take a shot at the offending individual. So why did one officer somehow feel that there was an opportunity to shoot, while being positioned behind another officer when no one else did? Sounds like operator error..

TDC

TDC
 
Rich LPS said:
TDC,

With regards to the ERT Team incident there are many more details than I choose to share with you. (The team was also fired upon while in a hallway by a suspect who shot a magnum pistol through a door at them.) I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think you have ever used firearms operationally.
Click to expand...

If a round was fired, than the operator failed to put it on safe. Your point is moot because the weapon was cocked, being able to put the weapon on safe if uncocked would have changed nothing in this case.

More details? I'm sure that their is lots that we don't know about the circumstances, but like has already been stated, it still boils down to operator error. I don't know how police train, but in the army I'll give my guys major crap if I see them flag anybody.

ETA: ND's and peoples excuses for having them, piss me off to no end. If you have an ND you have done two things wrong;
1- You failed to apply the safety, and
2- You pulled the trigger.
 
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KevinB said:
If your worried about the safety - rack the action - put it on safe and carry it that way...
The US Army does it that way....
Click to expand...

Kevin,

I take this to mean, with an empty chamber?,, like: with the mag removed, the action is then racked, chamber check, and then the safety is applied? So that they always have the safety applied regardless of the loaded/ready state?

Dave
 
Dave, Roger that.

The majority of units here must have their weapons in green state (no mag, empty chamber, safety on) while on base.
Some entities are allowed to go Amber (empty chamber, loaded mag, weapon on safe) and others RED (weapon hot, safety on)

Green just is not my color BTW ;)

IF the weapon is on safe, no one is lased, and no finger on Mr Trigger - then your good to go regardless of weapon readiness state.

Blaming a ND on a weapon is just wrong.

Safety is on unless you are shooting - after shoot - and secondary scans - and clearing -- then it goes back on.
Some teach right back on after shooting - and I wont have an issue with that either.

Some teams that run guns off safe are just accidents waiting to happen, they are dinosaurs from a by gone age - or people with the poorly designed Hk (non Hk416) weapons where it is hard to put on and off safe.
 
Leg,

You are correct. It is a case of operator error. No he did not pull the trigger but the weapon was not on safe when it fired while he was performing a secondary task. Very unfortunate and I'm glad the operator recovered fully from the injury. If the weapon was SAN or HK it likely would have made no difference and had the same result.

I was simply stating that it's nice to have a weapon system that will always go on safe and this can be an added advantage.

It just gets a little old when I keep reading the armchair types spout off about weapons and tactics and how much they know. Your perspective changes a bit when you carry a gun for a living as well as point it at people, not to mention having them point guns back at you.

Kevins way out of line criticizing HK guns. I'm going to report him to HK PRO. The newer HK guns have easier to reach safetys re. G36. The MP5 now has an extended safety lever to correct their hard to reach ones.

Rich
 
Rich LPS said:
Leg,

You are correct. It is a case of operator error. No he did not pull the trigger but the weapon was not on safe when it fired while he was performing a secondary task. Very unfortunate and I'm glad the operator recovered fully from the injury. If the weapon was SAN or HK it likely would have made no difference and had the same result.

I was simply stating that it's nice to have a weapon system that will always go on safe and this can be an added advantage.

Rich
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Your statement in bold is a contradiction to the paragraph above. The answer and the problem are as predicted. The operator f*cked up. The ability to select safe with or without a charged rifle would have made no difference. So why the ignorant belief surrounding the benefits of a system that will allow safe selection with and without a charged system??

TDC
 
I don't have a semi-auto rifle, let alone a black/green one (or even a restricted licence!). All I've handled are some bolt actions, break opens and lever actions (my whole gun collection consists of a single bolt-action sniper rifle).

That having been said, I've handled the SIG once... wasn't that impressed, but as soon as I had a chance to handle and fire a single round out of a Colt AR-15 a rangemate happened to have, I fell in love instantly. If there were a single reason for me to get a restricted licence, it would be to buy that rifle.
 
TDC said:
Your statement in bold is a contradiction to the paragraph above. The answer and the problem are as predicted. The operator f*cked up. The ability to select safe with or without a charged rifle would have made no difference. So why the ignorant belief surrounding the benefits of a system that will allow safe selection with and without a charged system??

TDC
Click to expand...

If you have a firearm on safe, it is readily identified as being on safe, regardless of if there is a round in the chamber.
If you have a firearm such as the AR, not on safe, it is not readily identified as being safe (not chambered) or readied (round chambered, weapon off safe).

Try reading the two paragraphs separately.

It's ok that you don't get it, just don't assume it is ignorant and not the other way round.
 
Paulinski said:
Another reason for you to get a restricted license is to ensure that black-rifles will remain in hands of civilian shooters.

Its easy to get an RPAL.
Click to expand...

Not when the local gun club gouges the prices :rolleyes:. They ask for a "donation" of 40$, yet they also have a store front and charge a hefty fee for memberships - I don't think they'll be running out of business any time soon. They only do the course a handful of times per year, so it's not like they're hemorrhageing money on instructor fees... Anyway, enough ranting; in time, I will likely get it, although I hope that by that time, "restricted" won't be the new "prohibited" :D.
 
TDC,

I apologise for assuming that you do not carry a firearm for a living but I assume that I am right in saying so. As I state again, there are advantages to having a weapon system that can be put on safe regardless of it's bolt / sear / hammer condition.

Beltfed has pointed out one of the reasons why it can be of an advantage. You may not have the experience to know some of the other reasons, but that's OK you probably don't carry guns for a living. I'm not going to bore others here in more details.

Your posts regarding the "retard cops / badges ect." is a little over the top. As I said before some of us who carry guns for a living get a little tired of armchair types giving us tips on tactics, guns, finger's on triggers, ect. when they could not even come close to passing the selections to get in the front doors of our units. I'm sure you will keep posting about contradictions and how much you know ect. but you and I live in different worlds. Your's is probably safer and that's a good thing. I'll try to keep on making it safer.

Rich
 
Keep in mind the mechanics. A saftey which only blocks the trigger can be easily built and will go on no matter what the position of the bolt block/firing pin or whatever else the sear engages. (i.e cocked/not cocked)

As soon as you start to want the firing pin/sear/bolt positively locked (like we want) you run into the problem of how far your saftey will 'lift'. Asking a saftey to positively engaging two diffrent surfaces or the same surface in two difftrent places (hammer up and hammer down) makes mechanics get ugly.

Often the surface that a saftey engages (when the firearm is cocked) is resting against something else once the hammer is fully down. Just getting a positive engaement becomes tough and then adding on to that the chore of pulling that enagement back to a safe position and you have an overly complicated mechanism that does no real good.

It has been like this since the dawn of SA (single action) safties. Things must be at a near status quo point in saftey design because depsite the industry bringing us oodles of new and sometimes useful toys we don't see much change on the saftey front.
 
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I think the main reasoning (and argument you guys might not realize) is training.

Its easier to train somebody to 'put it on safe' after the fire-arm doesnt need to be discharged, rather than 'charge the fire-arm and than put it on safe'

Under stress the most basic actions prevail.

I am all for ARs having a safety no matter where the trigger/sear is. Anything more than instict goes out the window when adrenaline is pumping... even 'muscle memory' looses out a bit when SHTF.

Also Im all for having a fire-arm charged and on safe, rather than 'not loaded, not charged, and on safe' It takes that few seconds to get the fire-arm in action.

I love the USPs safety... doesnt matter what state the fire-arm is in, I can have it 'safety on'

Luke
 
TheGamer### said:
I am all for ARs having a safety no matter where the trigger/sear is. Anything more than instict goes out the window when adrenaline is pumping... even 'muscle memory' looses out a bit when SHTF.
Click to expand...

I have to disagree with this statement.

Maybe for someone who is untrained they are relying on instinct. Under stress you will revert to the level of training you have mastered. It's up to you or your unit to get you up to the standard so when you are under stress you will still perform.
 
beltfed said:
If you have a firearm on safe, it is readily identified as being on safe, regardless of if there is a round in the chamber.
If you have a firearm such as the AR, not on safe, it is not readily identified as being safe (not chambered) or readied (round chambered, weapon off safe).

Try reading the two paragraphs separately.

It's ok that you don't get it, just don't assume it is ignorant and not the other way round.
Click to expand...

As you indicated, a safety in the "safe" position is readily identified. The fact the AR platform is incapable of the safe position with the hammer in the down/fired position is irrelevant. A rifle not on safe, is not a safe rifle. Chambered round or not, hammer cocked or not. All firearms with their safety in the off position are not safe. With the AR and its unique inability regarding the safety positions, its an instant indicator of someone who failed to cycle the action and clear the firearm prior to running it. The selector that won't "select" is the give away.

TDC
 
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