The Austrian M1895 Stutzen

GAH... Badger... teasing me like that! ARG! All matching, good condition, still unit and date marked bah humbug I need a retirement pension and time to buy something like that!
 
Hi again, Drachenblut!

Click on the buff-coloured link at the top of this page; Tradex has your 250-grain Woodleighs in stock and they are in Canada. They also have .700 Nitro slugs, just in case you have a problem with dinosaurs getting into your cabbage patch. I'm going now for a nice chew of Cordite: I saw the prices!

Powders for loading this number. You have a very short barrel, so you will have to stay away from medium- or slow-burning powders, unless you REALLY want a huge fireball at the muzzle. This was a problem with the 6.5x52 MC ammo that Western made up shortly after the War; it was loaded with a medium-burning Ball powder and when you shot the ammo in a Carbine, you got a 2-foot fireball and a report that almost rivalled the preparatory bombardment at Passchendaele... each and every time you pulled the trigger. Just SUPER loud.

The original powders for this cartridge were quite fast, the 8x50R being originally a Blackpowder round on its 1888 adoption (same as the .303) and changed to a smokeless in 1890. They didn't have much of a handle on burning rates in 1890 and so the powders all were much faster than we use today for a lot of purposes. TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909 gives the original loading for your rifle as a 244-grain bullet of .3228" diameter propelled by 42.44 grains of 'nitro-cellulose' powder, which would have been a flake because that's all they could make at that time. Our modern progressive powders all were designed by the Maxim brothers; Hiram worked mostly in England, on machine-guns, but Hudson worked in the States and designed the original MR powders for duPont.
Frank C. Barnes gives loads for this round in his COTW, 6th Edition, all using IMR-3031 powder, which burns quick enough that your short barrel should be able to use most of it at least, especially with those Volkswagen-weight bullets. Barnes' data is given as:
48 grains 3031, 159 bullet for 2460 ft/sec and 2142 ft/lbs energy
45 grains 3031, 227 bullet for 2040 ft/sec and 2102 ft/lbs energy
45 grains 3031, 244 bullet for 2010 ft/sec and 2200 ft/lbs energy

and he gives 2 factory loads also, as
244 military factory load at 2030 ft/sec for 2240 ft/lbs energy
244 sporting factory load at 2100 ft/sec for 2382 ft/lbs energy

Note carefully that he does NOT specify barrel length.

Sporting loads likely would have been really old Kynoch and definitely would have been Berdan primed; this cartridge was never made in North America.

Do have funs!
 
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Hello again Smellie!

Hmmm... excellent! Would you be able to suggest a powder loading for my 8X50R using that IMR 3031 powder for 197 grain bullets? I was thinking (based on the above data) that a loading of 46.5 grains would be sufficent (being a grain over the 227 grain bullet.) What are your thoughts? I am very new to reloading and this is by far the most challenging calibre I've yet dealt with.
 
Load Data Members
Selected Metallic Loads
8x50R Mannlicher Reloading Data
Printable Version
Warning! Notes: Not a warning - source: Rifle Issue #144 - November, 1992
Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.
Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS)

170 Hornady roundnose IMR IMR-3031 47.0 2,303
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 2.68; group (inches): 1.00x1.25; case make: Norma 7.62x54R

170 Hornady roundnose IMR IMR-3031 47.0 2,382
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 2.68; group (inches): 1.00x1.29; case make: Bulgarian 8x50R; Bulgarian Berdan-primed military case converted to Large Rifle primer

170 Hornady roundnose IMR IMR-3031 47.0 2,354
Remarks: primer: Berdan/RWS; cartridge length (inches): 2.68; group (inches): 1.29x0.29; case make: Wollersdorf 8x56R

200 Nosler Partition IMR IMR-4895 46.0 1,941
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 2.95; group (inches): 0.50x2.50; case make: Bertram 8x56R

220 Hornady Spire Point IMR IMR-4064 44.0 2,220
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 3.24; group (inches): 2.50x2.50; case make: Norma 7.62x54R
220 Hornady Spire Point IMR IMR-3031 44.5 2,229
Remarks: primer: Berdan/RWS; cartridge length (inches): 3.24; group (inches): 1.57x1.25; case make: Wollersdorf 8x56R

220 Hornady Spire Point IMR IMR-3031 42.0 1,941
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 3.24; group (inches): 1.50x1.50; case make: Norma 7.62x54R
220 Sierra spitzer IMR IMR-3031 44.5 2,203
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 2.90; group (inches): 2.50x2.50; case make: Norma 7.62x54R

220 Sierra spitzer IMR IMR-3031 44.5 2,221
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 2.90; group (inches): 2.50x3.50; case make: Bulgarian 8x50R; Bulgarian Berdan-primed military case converted to Large Rifle primer

175 Hustler cast/GC IMR SR-4759 16.0 1,260
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 2.79; group (inches): 1.00x0.75; case make: Bertram 8x56R

175 Hustler cast/GC IMR SR-4759 18.0 1,451
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; cartridge length (inches): 2.79; group (inches): 0.29x0.29; case make: Bertram 8x56R
 
Wow... Awesome, Thanks alot diopter! A question, I should be able to use a 197 grain round nose interchangeably with the 200 Nosler Partition with a 1 grain powder reduced load right? In this length, what is the over-all length of the round, is it "cartridge length"?
 
When I'm handloading for a military rifle, I always try to stay as close as possible to the overall length of a factory Ball round. It might crowd the rifling a tiny bit more than one might like, but this is what they were throated for when they were made and generally it will shoot more accurately.

Original milspec load used a ROUND-NOSED bullet with quite a long shank. You should be able to seat anything made to that overall length and still be safe.

Seating a lighter bullet that far out can do no harm (because you're not running the ammo through a machine-gun that bashes it around). If it's 'too far out' but still is seated firmly in the case-neck, all it will do is give you slilghtly lower pressures. Those critters have very long throats and it thus is difficult to seat a lighter bullet too far out for the gun.

Hope this helps.
 
It does, smellie, however as asked above, is the "cartridge length" the maximum overall length I can have when the bullet is fully assembled? I have 197 grain Round Nose bullets here, but do not know what the full over-all max and min length of the fully assembled 8X50R cartridge is.
As well the original milspec load did call for a very heavy bullet. Once I slug my bore, I will obtain it's diameter. If needed, I will try to find .330 250 Grain bullets, as you mentioned Trade Ex has Woodleigh in stock.

Cheers
 
You won't need the .330" or .329" bullets until you find a Stutzer that has been modded to take the later cartridge, the 8x56R30M. Yours still is in the original 8x50R that came out in 1888 and was given a smokeless load in 1890. But Woodleigh does make your 250-grain bullets for the rifle you have and Tradex does have them in stock, as of this afternoon, anyway.

About your cartridge..... Let's look at the TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909 and try to find some answers.
TBSA gives the following:
Cartridge length overall: 3.00 inches (Case length is not given, but it is 1.98")
Cartridge weight: 455 grains
Rim or Rimless: Rim

Bullet:
Shape of nose: round
Material of envelope: steel, lubricated
Length: 1.24 inches
Diameter, max.: .3228"
Weight: 244 grains

Charge:
Weight: 42.44 grains
Propellant: Nitro-cellulose

Value of W/d-squared= .334

Muzzle Velocity: 2034 ft/sec
Chamber Pressure: 19.7 tons

The "tons" are British Imperial Long tons, 2240 pounds apiece, so your WORKING chamber pressure ought to be about (19.7x2240=) 44,128 pounds per square inch.

Furthermore, it also says that there is a detailed description of the rifle starting on Page 37, but you already have those pages, so you know what's inside the critter.

Hope this helps.
 
Ah. I see, so when it states "overall" or "cartridge" length, that is the proper length of the round from tip to stern when it's fully assembled. Very good. I will have to look into the 250 Grain bullets. My guess is that I could somewhat substitute them for the 244 grain bullet leads with 44 Grains of IMR 3031 Powder. That is working off the data you provided earlier, smellie, where a 244 grain bullet is used with 45 grains of IMR 3031 Powder to produce just over 2000 feet per second muzzle velocity. Does this sound good enough to approximate the old loads with what is availiable?
 
You are quite right.

6 grains is only 2-1/2% increase in bullet weight and 2-1/2% is not much unless you are working right up at the ragged edge of pressures. You won't be working that close to any edge. What you would get MIGHT be a detectable difference in pressures if you had appropriate strain gauges and so forth: a basic ballistics laboratory. You can actually get half of that variation in a single box of bullets and that much again in a box of casings, so it's safe even without dropping the load as you (very sensibly) propose.

Dropping the charge a little bit and going with the 6-grains-heavier slug will work fine and won't hurt the rifle. I can't speak for your shoulder, though, never having thrown that much lead, at that kind of speed, from something that light. Carcano was bad enough!

Funny thing about the Carcano, though. I mentioned the awful fireballs and shocking report when used with the Winchester-Western ammo. I put the carbine to one side and it sat for many years. Then, one day, I decided to do somethng about it; it was, after all, the shortest thing I owned and they ARE sort of cute. So I cooked up a bunch of handloads with 140 slugs and used IMR-4198 powder, which is REALLY fast, because of the short barrel. Hey, presto! No more thund'rous report, no more fireballs. Suddenly, I was holding a docile and mild-recoiling little rifle that shot a LOT better than one would have hoped.

NEVER too old to learn!

Hope this helps.
 
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smellie,
Thank you for all the help. I will see about obtaining those bullets and powder, and some cases, and prep to load for 250 Grain Round Nose, at 44 Grains of IMR 3031 Powder. I have a friend who is infact planning to use 4198 powder as a smokeless substitute in a black powder load, with a very reduced charge. Everything should be excellent, now what I DO need, smellie, is an idea of the maximum overall length I can allow for the 8X50R cartridge so I can place my round at either that or under it slightly.
 
Cartridge CASE length is 1.98 inches

Loaded cartridge OVERALL length is exactly 3 inches, according to TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909.

This should get you going. If not, PM me or post something here.

You might mention to your friend that he would likely be better off to use SR-4759 for a Black substitute. I have tried IMR-4198 in my .50-calibre Remington and, even with a wad, there is just no way that it burns anything at ALL predictably. Generally, there is half-burnt powder from one end of the barrel to the other and a squib shot with the bullet wobbling slowly downrange at a little better than 14 feet-per-second. The powder is just too slow for that rifle.

I have a 1961 Lyman book here and, back then, they still were loading for a lot of the old black-powder rounds. The preferred powder always seemed to have been the SR-4759. This is a SPORTING RIFLE powder and was designed originally as a replacement for Black and it is related very closely to the old-time Bulk powders. As it was made for many years, you could almost use it bulk-for-bulk, but I believe that it has been 'remodelled' recently as to grain size, so now you must go by WEIGHT of the charge. To use the SR-4759 as a substitute for Black, you use THIRTY-EIGHT PERCENT of your Black-powder charge BY WEIGHT. Generally, this will give you the same velocity and the same pressure as if you were shooting Black, but without the half-acres of smoke every shot and all that danged fouling to dig out of the bore. It burns very clean at this charge level. It is safe in the old .43 Mauser and was specifically recommended for the Mauser cartridge, so should be just what the doctor ordered for most of the old ones.
Still, I don't think I would run it in a Snider.... a lot of them had soft brown-iron barrels and I really don't trust anything except Black in them, and at fairly low charges, just for good measure. Kynich used to load the Martini-Henry with smokeless, but even they didn't load Snider ammo with it. They likely knew what they were doing; they made the stuff for over a century.

So, have fun!
 
Excellent. Thank you again folks, this has been very helpful. Now, it falls to obtaining the components and the time to load! *rubs hands Mr. Burns Style* Ehxcellent! Oh and if anyone has a Bulgarian contract stutzen they would someday like to part with, let me know! I am also looking for a 8X50R Steyr marked (I have a Budapest) Stutzen (I would like the date on the barrel intact, if not whatever.) Most of these are AOI marked for italian service. Keep your eyes peeled!
 
Interesting read.
I had two grandfathers who used these weapons. One who was infantry in Austr-Hugarian Army WW1 and the other who was in Czech Cavalry just after the war.
 
Interesting thread. Below is a link to a thread I started on a commercial M95 I started a while ago. Since I bought it I've found 20 loaded factory rounds in 8x50R to go with the bag of already formed 8x54R shells. Dies came with it when I bought it. It is a cool little rifle. I think this one was one of the few sporting carbines that were imported as mentioned in Cartridges of the World.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=238287
 
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