The BEF "Mad Minute", anyone know the details???

dragoon7214

dragoon7214

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I have read in several books about the standard of British Regular troops marksmanship, especially in the early days of the war when the "old Contemptibles" were retreating from Mons, Belgium. German reports estimated that the British had nine divisions, well equipped with machine guns, when in actual fact they had three, with very few automatic weapons. British infantrymen were trained to fire the "Mad Minute" which was 15 (some accounts say 16) aimed shots in a minute from the issued Lee Enfield No1 MkIII. I am wondering what the standard was, i.e. the range, size of target, firing position that this was based on. I'd be very interested to try firing the "mad Minute" and see if I could accomplish it.

As well my grandfather fought in the first world war, in the Gordon Highlanders. My mother told me that her father said that he met up with his older brother (they served in the same battalion) when he arrived in France. He was a marksman and was wearing his crossed rifles on his uniform, and his brother told him to take them off. When he asked why, his brother told him that if he wore them, someone would notice (Brass), make him a sniper, and he wouldn't last a day. He duly took them off. I was wondering if anyone knew what the standard was to earn a marksmans crossed rifles in the BEF during WW1, any information or thoughts would be appreciated.
 
My understanding of the Mad Minute is as follows, but someone else may know better :

-15 rounds
-60 seconds
-load five, fire five, repeat
-200 yards
-Man size target
-Prone unsupported position
 
Jiggi-watt said:
My understanding of the Mad Minute is as follows, but someone else may know better :

-15 rounds
-60 seconds
-load five, fire five, repeat
-200 yards
-Man size target
-Prone unsupported position
Click to expand...

300 yards according to Wiki and I think it only involved one reload i.e. starting with 10. I also don't think there was an upper level to the number of rounds but they had to make 15 hits in the one minute
 
Garlond said:
300 yards according to Wiki and I think it only involved one reload i.e. starting with 10. I also don't think there was an upper level to the number of rounds but they had to make 15 hits in the one minute
Click to expand...

I've read the wiki on it too, but I'm not sure I buy it. I'd need to see a few sources that can correlate that. The reason I say that, is because with good quality handloads, getting a 6" grouping at 300 yards with an Enfield is excellent, and that's using the better quality No4 sights which were not present on the SMLE. The time/rounds fired part is easy...I just don't think they'd have the time to aim well enough to hit a man size target 15 times at 300 yards in one minute from an unsupported position. There's a huge difference between 200 and 300 yards I find...besides the actual measurement :p

I could still be wrong, and if so, I'm even more impressed with achieving that feet than I was previously.

**edit** : I checked the sources on wiki...the urbandictionary I won't use as a reliable source, but the BBC has more credibility, and the author is a Military Historian at Cransfield. I'll be interested to see what other CGN'ers have to say.
 
I believe the general standard nowadays is 15 rounds a minute at 200yrds, including the initial and subsequent load. Load 10, then 5. I have read that it was not uncommon for troops to be able to fire around 30 aimed shots a minute. So the troops were probably encouraged to improve their personal best. I also think that they would have started firing at greater distances than 200yrds if the situation dictated, remember the procedure is similar to an area effect weapon on a mass of enemy attackers. So if Johnny misses at 300yrds, Tommy beside him might not, and besides Johnny's bullet may have just missed Dieter, but could very well hit poor Heinrick coming up behind him to his left. I have also heard of a technique whereby using the forefinger and the thumb to grasp the bolt handle it never has to leave this position to grasp the stock, and the trigger is pulled instead with the middle finger, thus with practice it could significantly improve one's rapid fire rate.
 
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Notice that it died out after 1914,as by 1915 there hardly any left of the orginal BEF.Does not seem to have been praticed after that time fram, not heard of in WW2. So its just a bit of history now from WW1.
 
Here's another one for you : AFAIK back in those days the Lee-Enfield rifle came with a cut-off plate which was supposed to only be slid out when ordered to, essentially making the rifle a single-shot. Yet, I've never heard of 303 Brit ammo being issued in anything but 5 round chargers. Was ammo ever issued as loose rounds, and were there special pockets, bandoliers, or other containers manufactured specifically to hold loose rounds ?
 
A 'Mad Minute' was everybody shooting rapid for one minute(oddly enough). Usually used when a unit was trying to disengage. The number of rounds fired by an individual didn't matter.
"...I'd be very interested to try firing the "mad Minute"..." It's great fun, but arrange it ahead of time. Get a bunch of shooters(who you know are safe) together plus a stop watch and make sure the RO knows about it. Most RO's know how to use a stop watch.
"...won't use as a reliable source..." Wikipedia isn't reliable either. Anybody with Internet access can post anything they want there. A lot of Internet myths get promulgated and repeated there.
"...making the rifle a single-shot..." Yep. Until the early W.W. I battles woke them up, the British Generals thought the troopies would waste ammo without the mag cut off. Even over 100 years later, the Generals were still thinking in terms of Napoleonic era tactics. MG's or not. The PBI was to break the enemy line so Cavalry could get into the German rear. Mounted Cavalry existed throughout the war for this purpose. Horses weren't retired until well into the 1930's.
"...ammo ever issued as loose rounds..." Ammo comes off chargers easily.
 
the mad minute was used in nam with the infantry- i'll see if i can find pictures( fairly recent as they were using m16-20's) esp if there was a treeline in the vicinity-
 
I think the drill was start with 10 in the mag, fire 7 load 5, fire 6 load 5, then change to fire 5 load 5 till the time runs out. that way you would always have a minimum of 2 rounds in the mag and you get off a few extra shots early in the strings also the mag is easier to charge when your not trying to fill it to the max load every time.

Troops that could meet the standard were given a marksman bonus on their pay, so there was an incentive to shoot rapid fire well.
 
Mad Minute

In my early army days,Basic Training Kingston ,1948 the best shooters in the company were picked for special shooting instructions. Part of which was the Mad Min using original rules.That is what we were told.
to qualify you had to:
30 rounds in 60 seconds
Load 10, load 5 ,load 5 more if needed
200 Yards
Prone ,unsupported
Man sized target

A hit was any round through the target.
I bit of practice and 30 or better was easy. I went on to shoot in service matches all over Canada.It was real hoot loads of fun and good times. Sure beat the hell out of 4 hours of drill on Saturday mornings. Duker
 
In the early 1960's the Canadian army did a mad minute with FN C1s'. A loaded 10 reound magazine with a magazine change to a loaded five round magazine. We did the practice at 100 yards.
 
sunray said:
"...won't use as a reliable source..." Wikipedia isn't reliable either. Anybody with Internet access can post anything they want there. A lot of Internet myths get promulgated and repeated there.
Click to expand...

That's why when accuracy matters, I check the references sources on Wikipedia articles.

RobSmith said:
Here's another one for you : AFAIK back in those days the Lee-Enfield rifle came with a cut-off plate which was supposed to only be slid out when ordered to, essentially making the rifle a single-shot. Yet, I've never heard of 303 Brit ammo being issued in anything but 5 round chargers. Was ammo ever issued as loose rounds, and were there special pockets, bandoliers, or other containers manufactured specifically to hold loose rounds ?
Click to expand...

I like the idea of the cut off plate so that you can keep dirt out of the magazine, as well as close the bolt without chambering a round to keep dirt out of the action. You can still do that by pushing the top round down with your thumb while closing the bolt, but with 10 rounds loaded it can be irritating to do.
 
"...keep dirt out of the magazine..." Doesn't. Keeps the big stuff out, but not dust etc.
"...with FN C1's..." Two 20 round mags rapid will cause the forestock to smoulder. Never actually got any flame though.
"...references sources on..." References aren't required. Preferred, but not required. One of the early Wikipedia employees wanted them to have a contributing experts forum. He quit because the owners refused.
 
This is from the Lee Enfield Rifle Assoc. in the UK.

Practice 3 RAPID FIRE (Mad Minute)

Unlimited shots firer starts standing up in the alert position rifle loaded with 10 rounds bolt closed and safety on. The appearance of the 4 foot screen (as Used in practice 1) is the signal to adopt the prone position and fire as many shots as possible in the one minute the target is exposed. Reloading by clips on demand scoring 5 points per hit on the fig 11 Practice HPS (the record is 37 rds in a minute acheived just after the first world war by a British Skill at Arms Instructor.)
 
The Battle of Mons ought to be mentioned here...:)

BTW, I kinda like this site (random thought, I know :p):

http://anonymous-generaltopics.########.com/2009/02/lee-enfield.html

Finally :cool::

[youtube]eh-pgRhi_Lo[/youtube]
 
I found an article on the net once that mentioned "volley fire". Apparantly it was used by our troops in WW 1 to lay down a volley of fire with the SMLE into the enemy lines and this may be similar, or at least a technique used during the "mad minute"? .

As Vimy ridge mentions in his thread the troops hold the bolt with their fore finger and thumb and use the middle finger to pull the trigger which speeds up the shots fired substantially. I actually tried this with one of my SMLE's and it's amazing how many dry fires I got in a short period of time. I am not sure if I could actually hit much or what shape my shoulder would be in after but a guy could shoot a lot of shots in a short period of time. The German troops were apparantly noted as saying that when this volley fired was directed at them, they mistakenly thought that machine guns were being fired at them. Glad I was not on the receiving end of that.
 
For speed when operating a bolt action I find it's best never to grasp the bolt at all but run it with the heel of your hand. Lifting the bolt and rotating your hand into position for pulling the trigger as you push the bolt forward.
 
Mike Webb said:
For speed when operating a bolt action I find it's best never to grasp the bolt at all but run it with the heel of your hand. Lifting the bolt and rotating your hand into position for pulling the trigger as you push the bolt forward.
Click to expand...

That's how I do it and I can get them off pretty damn fast for a bolt action.
 
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