The Big M4 Myth

[misanthropist]

And it is a design flaw when relatively expensive components like magazines, and even bolt carriers, have to be replaced more often than other systems under hard use.

Could you give us a breakdown of comparable life cycles of competing magazines used in other weapon systems?

How about a total maintenance schedule and costing for other systems?


A lot of people think the AR is maintenance intensive, but that is largely because they are only familiar with AR maintenance. Has anyone here been tasked with keeping several hundred AKs running? I can think of a few people who have...and they'd all take ARs in a heartbeat if they could. How about the SAN? I would guess not...it's barely seen combat compared to the AR/M4.

Familiarity with the design allows us to see its shortcomings. Unfamiliarity with the competition prevents most of us from comparing them intelligently.

 

[Steve Janes]

Telling an AR guy, that there is something wrong with AR's, is like telling my Old Man he's an Old Man.
The reaction is bound to get ugly

An AR guy talking about AR reliability is like your wife asking "Does this make my butt look fat"???
You have an opinion, but not matter how you answer, your FUC*ED


Found this, thought it would stir the pot a bit::stirthepot2 :

What REAL SOLDIERS have to say about the M-4/M-16:

3rd ID soldier: “I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too.”

25th Infantry Division soldier: “The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights.”

82nd Airborne Division soldier: “The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”

75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM: “Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”

The 507th Maintenance Company, ambushed outside Nasariyah in 2003 during the opening days of the ground invasion of Iraq, might concur with all of the above. The post-incident report released by the US Army had this to say:

“Dusty, desert conditions do require vigilance in weapons maintenance… However, it is imperative to remember that at the time of the attack, the 507th had spent more than two days on the move, with little rest and time to conduct vehicle repair and recovery operations.”

The last word will be left to SOCOM’s Major Chaz Bowser:

“We buy new laptop computers every few years across the gamut, so couldn’t we do the same with our single most important piece of military equipment? …. Waiting for a leap-ahead technology based on a kinetic energy weapon platform is a waste of time and money, so we need to look at what is out there now…. What the Army needs is a weapon that is now ready for prime-time and not a developmental system…. The requirement comes from the field, not from an office in some garrison activity, not from some consultant and definitely not from a vendor.

Let’s do this quickly without all the bureaucracy typically associated with change. Find someone in our ranks who can make a decision – who hasn’t floated a retirement resume with a gun company – and make the decision now. Just look how fast we were all issued the ‘highly coveted’ black beret or the digital uniform. Find that recipe card, change out the word ‘Velcro’ with ‘battle rifle’ and that may be a start to finding a solution [DID: which, he acknowledges, could be Colt's M4 if that's what the competition shows]. Our men and women deserve much better than we are giving them, and shame on us.

 

[KevinB]

Could you give us a breakdown of comparable life cycles of competing magazines used in other weapon systems?

How about a total maintenance schedule and costing for other systems?


A lot of people think the AR is maintenance intensive, but that is largely because they are only familiar with AR maintenance. Has anyone here been tasked with keeping several hundred AKs running? I can think of a few people who have...and they'd all take ARs in a heartbeat if they could. How about the SAN? I would guess not...it's barely seen combat compared to the AR/M4.

Familiarity with the design allows us to see its shortcomings. Unfamiliarity with the competition prevents most of us from comparing them intelligently.

BINGO.

The AR is a really cheap to operate system.
Mags are realistically in any system a consumable -- AR mags are cheap compared to about any specific weapon mag, and those go bad too.

The lower on an AR is good for nearly ever -- usually around the 250,000 mark the fire control pins will have gone oval, and the same with the auto sear.
How many folks in the Government will shoot 1/4 Million rounds, and lower is pretty cheap.

Upper - other than the flatop getting FUBAR from use, the only thing that usually happens inside about 100K round is sometimes the upper gets a nasty trough cut into it but the cam pin, and then that is not a major issue for the most case. Unless a hamster ruins it on rebarreling, it has a very long service life.

Springs - all spring go with use and heat, get over it.

Bolt and barrel.
Well, you can go around and around on this. However even a top of the line CR32 steel (Melonited or Chromed) barrel will die quickly if one uses certain ammo and has a high heat cycle on the gun repeatedly.

 

[ztunelover]

You're missing my point, I never said pmags didn't work. I merely mean that the design with the original magazine is the weak link in the AR platform.

I can't disagree with you there, if it wasnt the weak link nobody would have bothered trying to upgrade it, maybe the gis were not designed to be used as long as we use it for, if a tire is rated for 20k and you run it for 25k and gives you trouble for the last 5k that isnt design flaw, thats you taking the tires past their designed service life. Now can we do better by getting tires designed to last 40k? Sure we can, but that is not a design flaw of the older tires if it is used past its service life. Who knows 5 years down the road we might get mags that make the pmag look obsolete and unreliable. That doesnt make the pmag a defective design, that simply makes it an outdated design.

 

[ztunelover]

Telling an AR guy, that there is something wrong with AR's, is like telling my Old Man he's an Old Man.
The reaction is bound to get ugly

An AR guy talking about AR reliability is like your wife asking "Does this make my butt look fat"???
You have an opinion, but not matter how you answer, your FUC*ED


Found this, thought it would stir the pot a bit::stirthepot2 :

What REAL SOLDIERS have to say about the M-4/M-16:

3rd ID soldier: “I know it fires very well and accurate [when] clean. But sometimes it needs to fire dirty well too.”

25th Infantry Division soldier: “The M4 Weapon in the deserts of Iraq and Afghanistan was quick to malfunction when a little sand got in the weapon. Trying to keep it clean, sand free was impossible while on patrols or firefights.”

82nd Airborne Division soldier: “The M4 is overall an excellent weapon, however the flaw of its sensitivity to dirt and powder residue needs to be corrected. True to fact, cleaning will help. Daily assigned tasks, and nonregular hours in tactical situations do not always warrant the necessary time required for effective cleaning.”

75th Ranger Regiment member, SOCOM: “Even with the dust cover closed and magazine in the well, sand gets all inside; on and around the bolt. It still fires, but after a while the sand works its way all through the gun and jams start.”

The 507th Maintenance Company, ambushed outside Nasariyah in 2003 during the opening days of the ground invasion of Iraq, might concur with all of the above. The post-incident report released by the US Army had this to say:

“Dusty, desert conditions do require vigilance in weapons maintenance… However, it is imperative to remember that at the time of the attack, the 507th had spent more than two days on the move, with little rest and time to conduct vehicle repair and recovery operations.”

The last word will be left to SOCOM’s Major Chaz Bowser:

“We buy new laptop computers every few years across the gamut, so couldn’t we do the same with our single most important piece of military equipment? …. Waiting for a leap-ahead technology based on a kinetic energy weapon platform is a waste of time and money, so we need to look at what is out there now…. What the Army needs is a weapon that is now ready for prime-time and not a developmental system…. The requirement comes from the field, not from an office in some garrison activity, not from some consultant and definitely not from a vendor.

Let’s do this quickly without all the bureaucracy typically associated with change. Find someone in our ranks who can make a decision – who hasn’t floated a retirement resume with a gun company – and make the decision now. Just look how fast we were all issued the ‘highly coveted’ black beret or the digital uniform. Find that recipe card, change out the word ‘Velcro’ with ‘battle rifle’ and that may be a start to finding a solution [DID: which, he acknowledges, could be Colt's M4 if that's what the competition shows]. Our men and women deserve much better than we are giving them, and shame on us.

Very well, I present to you the HK416. Good day sir.

 

[870P]

Could you give us a breakdown of comparable life cycles of competing magazines used in other weapon systems?

How about a total maintenance schedule and costing for other systems?


A lot of people think the AR is maintenance intensive, but that is largely because they are only familiar with AR maintenance. Has anyone here been tasked with keeping several hundred AKs running? I can think of a few people who have...and they'd all take ARs in a heartbeat if they could. How about the SAN? I would guess not...it's barely seen combat compared to the AR/M4.

Familiarity with the design allows us to see its shortcomings. Unfamiliarity with the competition prevents most of us from comparing them intelligently.

I don't have specific info, especially that I can grab from my smartphone.

However there is a certain design hailing from Vodkastan where both the rifle and its magazines are able to hold up for decades of hard use even in the hands of 4th world primitives who've never heard of Brownells'.

I also am lead to believe that just about any other infantry rifle and mag design of the last 60 years is at least somewhat better on both counts, be it the FAL, Vz58, G3, Type 63 and 81, etc.

 

[yohann160]

With all the brilliant and innovative ideas from the posters on this thread who seem to know a great deal about how they can fix all our problems, its a wonder why there aren't any of them who do one of the following:

1) Join the army as an officer, grind their way up to general and change things when they are CDS or in charge of procurements;
2) Go up for election, become MP, grind their way up to minister of defense or PM and change things through policy;
3) Join/create a firearms company and show up with a design that surpasses what we already have and have enough arguements to warrant the change.

Otherwise this argument over mag lips and pistons is really going nowhere. Worst thing is, we got actual experts posting here and people keep swinging back with AK dogma.

 

[TDC]

I don't have specific info, especially that I can grab from my smartphone.

However there is a certain design hailing from Vodkastan where both the rifle and its magazines are able to hold up for decades of hard use even in the hands of 4th world primitives who've never heard of Brownells'.

I also am lead to believe that just about any other infantry rifle and mag design of the last 60 years is at least somewhat better on both counts, be it the FAL, Vz58, G3, Type 63 and 81, etc.

Ak's fail just as much as anything else. Like most, you're likely regurgitating old myths and wives tales about both systems. Firearms are complex tools that are subjected to severe forces. They fail, they break, and they're often run by people who haven't a clue what maintenance or cleaning are. Anecdotal reports from soldiers of unkown skills, knowledge, or factual data about the incident are moot.

With all the brilliant and innovative ideas from the posters on this thread who seem to know a great deal about how they can fix all our problems, its a wonder why there aren't any of them who do one of the following:

1) Join the army as an officer, grind their way up to general and change things when they are CDS or in charge of procurements;
2) Go up for election, become MP, grind their way up to minister of defense or PM and change things through policy;
3) Join/create a firearms company and show up with a design that surpasses what we already have and have enough arguements to warrant the change.

Otherwise this argument over mag lips and pistons is really going nowhere. Worst thing is, we got actual experts posting here and people keep swinging back with AK dogma.

1. Not worth the effort and there's no guarantee that position has the authority to change anything. Money is what makes a change, not an opinion.
2. Again, not worth the effort and likely an even tougher battle to invoke change.
3. Starting a firearms company in Canada is a joke as there is near zero market and astronomical hoops to jump at cost. Joining a current company wouild require a US work visa and most companies already employ skilled engineers and experienced shooters for design input.

Just saying...

TDC

 

[Steiner]

It would be interesting to hear what complaints other armies have about their small arms.
Do the Swiss, Germans, French, Brits, Russians, Ukrainians, Polish, etc., etc. have issues with their infantry weapons? Anyone know their issues? I'd be interested to hear about what other modern armies find deficient in their systems.
Is the grass greener on the other side?
I don't know, just asking.

 

[TDC]

It would be interesting to hear what complaints other armies have about their small arms.
Do the Swiss, Germans, French, Brits, Russians, Ukrainians, Polish, etc., etc. have issues with their infantry weapons? Anyone know their issues? I'd be interested to hear about what other modern armies find deficient in their systems.
Is the grass greener on the other side?
I don't know, just asking.

Well the Enfield L85 is a colossal piece of sh*t that has been in constant redesign for over a decade. Another victim of national pride and nepotism in selecting that one. I'm sure others have their complaints. I've read about the G36 receivers warping with high round counts making the rifle very unreliable. I doubt you'll find any system that doesn't have its soft spots or complaints. There is no holy grail.

TDC

 

[yohann160]

It would be interesting to hear what complaints other armies have about their small arms.
Do the Swiss, Germans, French, Brits, Russians, Ukrainians, Polish, etc., etc. have issues with their infantry weapons? Anyone know their issues? I'd be interested to hear about what other modern armies find deficient in their systems.
Is the grass greener on the other side?
I don't know, just asking.

Didn't the British have problems with mags constantly dropping from their early Enfields?

 

[ztunelover]

I don't have specific info, especially that I can grab from my smartphone.

However there is a certain design hailing from Vodkastan where both the rifle and its magazines are able to hold up for decades of hard use even in the hands of 4th world primitives who've never heard of Brownells'.

I also am lead to believe that just about any other infantry rifle and mag design of the last 60 years is at least somewhat better on both counts, be it the FAL, Vz58, G3, Type 63 and 81, etc.

Ok how many of those rifles that you mentioned have you handled? Have you run an ak for an extended period of time, I think unlikely.

Do you own a vz58? Have you run one for an extended time period? Great rifle it may be, but it is very limited in what can be mounted to it, and in the civvy world not a big deal, in mil world it is a big deal, hence why you see all the contemporaries like scars and hk416s filled to the tits with rails.

And as for the FAL & G3, have you ever held one let alone shoot one? Those things are absolute tanks, doesnt matter how good the rifle or mag designs are, a soldier will tire out much faster with a full size rifle than with a carbine that runs intermediate cartridge and the soldier can carry less 308 than 223. The germans figured this out in 1944, it's not a very difficult concept. And an exhausted soldier equals misses, misses equals dead soldier.

And while we are on about comblock guns, have you tried the rock and lock setup under stress? It's a ##### to do fast when you aren't under stress let alone when there is bullets flying everywhere. I have never tried it with bullets flying above my head, but I have tried it with my vz in the comfort of my home, and I can tell you that after a couple of days of practice with the vz I was still slower with my smoothest mags than I was with the ar with plain jane gis, or pmags and minutes of trying.

Now i should clarify, that I dont think rock and lock is a defective design, but a lot more people botch rock and locks than the ar style reloads, so again it comes to the squishy organic bit running the chunk of metal and polymer. Training a soldier to be competent with rock and lock, takes more time, more time means more money, either that or soldiers that will be struggling to run a system that demands practice for competence, and we will end up with more dead soldiers as a result of incompetent reloads.

 

[saskcop]

I have used the fn under stress and while a magazine change is not quite as fluid as with the AR platform, it certainly is not difficult. I have all used an RPK and vz 58 fir thousands of rounds and they give up very little under most practical circumstances. Training is the key like anything else.

 

[Steve Janes]

I have used the fn under stress and while a magazine change is not quite as fluid as with the AR platform, it certainly is not difficult. I have all used an RPK and vz 58 fir thousands of rounds and they give up very little under most practical circumstances. Training is the key like anything else.

Couldn't agree more. Rock n' lock mags are far from being slow

 

[870P]

With all the brilliant and innovative ideas from the posters on this thread who seem to know a great deal about how they can fix all our problems, its a wonder why there aren't any of them who do one of the following:

1) Join the army as an officer, grind their way up to general and change things when they are CDS or in charge of procurements;
2) Go up for election, become MP, grind their way up to minister of defense or PM and change things through policy;
3) Join/create a firearms company and show up with a design that surpasses what we already have and have enough arguements to warrant the change.

Otherwise this argument over mag lips and pistons is really going nowhere. Worst thing is, we got actual experts posting here and people keep swinging back with AK dogma.

Since we're basically talking about the U.S. military context here, all of that's a very tall order.

Even if I magically became U.S. SecDef right now, the most I could likely do at this point would be to see to it that the existing inventory is kept fresh, and maybe see a few simple improvements (like those mentioned in the OP) become a reality beyond the cool guy level.

 

[KevinB]

There are several reasons many countries don't ##### and moan over their weapons.

1) They don't have a gun culture and civilian ownership is strictly controlled
2) The units that do have weapons experience get what they want (UK SOF w/ C8SFW and C8CQB, Aussie SOF with M4A1 and Hk416 10.4" )
3) No freedom of the press.



There is NO free lunch, but as I said before in the IC thread, the M16FOW is the best option at the present for 99.9% of troops.

 

[NavyCuda]

The AR15/AR10 is probably the most brilliant rifle design currently in production.

It is hard to argue against a gas operated rifle. Blowback and delayed blowback have their own design considerations that can make them more complicated in the long run.

What really stands out with the AR is that the bolt carrier group contains all the major operating components and can be replaced very quickly. Yes you get some gas and extra debris in the action but you can a rifle that is easier to maintain.

Like any other machine, use the best consumables and keep up with the maintenance and it will give you reliable service.

And as for the FAL & G3, have you ever held one let alone shoot one? Those things are absolute tanks, doesnt matter how good the rifle or mag designs are, a soldier will tire out much faster with a full size rifle than with a carbine that runs intermediate cartridge and the soldier can carry less 308 than 223. The germans figured this out in 1944, it's not a very difficult concept. And an exhausted soldier equals misses, misses equals dead soldier.

Actually they figured it out in the late 30's after they had finished developing the 7.92x33kurz. The STG44 was the end product of a design competition that saw field trials in 1942.

 

[ztunelover]

The AR15/AR10 is probably the most brilliant rifle design currently in production.

It is hard to argue against a gas operated rifle. Blowback and delayed blowback have their own design considerations that can make them more complicated in the long run.

What really stands out with the AR is that the bolt carrier group contains all the major operating components and can be replaced very quickly. Yes you get some gas and extra debris in the action but you can a rifle that is easier to maintain.

Like any other machine, use the best consumables and keep up with the maintenance and it will give you reliable service.



Actually they figured it out in the late 30's after they had finished developing the 7.92x33kurz. The STG44 was the end product of a design competition that saw field trials in 1942.

Sorry I should have said the germans demonstrated this understanding to the rest of the world in 1944

 

[enefgee]

With regard to the Vz58, it's magazines are easily the weakest link, the most common failure is that the upper part of the magazine (the feed lips) completely detaches from the mag body.

 

[ztunelover]

With regard to the Vz58, it's magazines are easily the weakest link, the most common failure is that the upper part of the magazine (the feed lips) completely detaches from the mag body.

Is that the aluminum or polymer magazine?