The Big M4 Myth

ztunelover said:
Ok how many of those rifles that you mentioned have you handled? Have you run an ak for an extended period of time, I think unlikely.

Do you own a vz58? Have you run one for an extended time period? Great rifle it may be, but it is very limited in what can be mounted to it, and in the civvy world not a big deal, in mil world it is a big deal, hence why you see all the contemporaries like scars and hk416s filled to the tits with rails.

And as for the FAL & G3, have you ever held one let alone shoot one? Those things are absolute tanks, doesnt matter how good the rifle or mag designs are, a soldier will tire out much faster with a full size rifle than with a carbine that runs intermediate cartridge and the soldier can carry less 308 than 223. The germans figured this out in 1944, it's not a very difficult concept. And an exhausted soldier equals misses, misses equals dead soldier.

And while we are on about comblock guns, have you tried the rock and lock setup under stress? It's a ##### to do fast when you aren't under stress let alone when there is bullets flying everywhere. I have never tried it with bullets flying above my head, but I have tried it with my vz in the comfort of my home, and I can tell you that after a couple of days of practice with the vz I was still slower with my smoothest mags than I was with the ar with plain jane gis, or pmags and minutes of trying.

Now i should clarify, that I dont think rock and lock is a defective design, but a lot more people botch rock and locks than the ar style reloads, so again it comes to the squishy organic bit running the chunk of metal and polymer. Training a soldier to be competent with rock and lock, takes more time, more time means more money, either that or soldiers that will be struggling to run a system that demands practice for competence, and we will end up with more dead soldiers as a result of incompetent reloads.
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I've shot all of them other than the Chinese rifles, which seem to be much the same as the AK as far as magazines.

Agreed that old school battle rifles are absolute bricks, although I was comparing military rifles as far as required maintenance and durability of their magazines, not their other qualities.

I totally agree that rock and lock is less than ideal, its not so bad if you're just standing or laying there but add movement or an awkward position into the mix and it becomes pretty bobble prone.
 
870P said:
I've shot all of them other than the Chinese rifles, which seem to be much the same as the AK as far as magazines.

Agreed that old school battle rifles are absolute bricks, although I was comparing military rifles as far as required maintenance and durability of their magazines, not their other qualities.

I totally agree that rock and lock is less than ideal, its not so bad if you're just standing or laying there but add movement or an awkward position into the mix and it becomes pretty bobble prone.
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So we come back to square 1. when all things are considered the ar is still the platform to beat.
 
ztunelover said:
So we come back to square 1. when all things are considered the ar is still the platform to beat.
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HK 416 is to be beaten in all truth. Overall it is the best of all the AR's and combat proven carbines, does not matter if Piston or DI matters not, it outperformed them all. Not necessarily in every category and in some cases a more race gun that behaves like a Mil gun like KAC can be a better depending on philosophy or doctrine of use when weight is a factor. It depends on the variants of 416 or barrel dimensions/profile as well. One thing to consider is muscle memory and that plays into it as well, one reason some units stick with say a C8 variant is because of that reason and that reason alone.

Regardless though the HK line either it be in a 10.4 or 14.5 or 16.5(M27 USMC winner of contract) 20 barrel there are many roles it can fill that are advantages over the traditional M4/C8/C7a2 family. Fact is durability and the ability of a rifle to hold up through rigorous training along with active duty in combat conditions and still hold up especially if parts are not available the HK line shines brightest.

Also HK can make there guns on mass, where as many other companies could not supply enough rifles and be able to maintain the quality at a steady pace.
 
Leibermuster said:
HK 416 is to be beaten in all truth. Overall it is the best of all the AR's and combat proven carbines, does not matter if Piston or DI matters not, it outperformed them all. Not necessarily in every category and in some cases a more race gun that behaves like a Mil gun like KAC can be a better depending on philosophy or doctrine of use when weight is a factor. It depends on the variants of 416 or barrel dimensions/profile as well. One thing to consider is muscle memory and that plays into it as well, one reason some units stick with say a C8 variant is because of that reason and that reason alone.

Regardless though the HK line either it be in a 10.4 or 14.5 or 16.5(M27 USMC winner of contract) 20 barrel there are many roles it can fill that are advantages over the traditional M4/C8/C7a2 family. Fact is durability and the ability of a rifle to hold up through rigorous training along with active duty in combat conditions and still hold up especially if parts are not available the HK line shines brightest.

Also HK can make there guns on mass, where as many other companies could not supply enough rifles and be able to maintain the quality at a steady pace.
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Cut it how you want, the hk416 is a hk tuned ar platform.
 
ztunelover said:
Cut it how you want, the hk416 is a hk tuned ar platform.
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Never was implying that it wasn't.

That being said :


If you are an armorer cleaning the rifles or maintains them the piston HK really saves a lot of time.

And to keep in mind Companies like "Colt Canada" that dogged them with BS rumors transitioned to their IUR and that rifle was destroyed by HK with their baseline 416 models in competition.
 
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Leibermuster said:
Never was implying that it wasn't.

That being said :


If you are an armorer cleaning the rifles or maintains them the piston HK really saves a lot of time.

And to keep in mind Companies like "Colt Canada" that dogged them with BS rumors transitioned to their IUR and that rifle was destroyed by HK with their baseline 416 models in competition.
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No arguements there, some ars are better than others, depending on where you are on the price point there is an ar for everyone.
 
Tactical Imports sells them for 3699 I believe. In the US they use to be somewhere in the $2200 to $2500 range if I remember correctly. Not bad considering they use to be sold for that crazy price. But hey they will last 3 to 4 times longer than most ARs. Lol. Depends on the type of usage.
 
IchBinEinSniper said:
Is that the HK416 that you can get here? The one that runs $4700? (MR223)
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As much as I respect that 416, it's way overboard from what a civilian would use it for, a quality di gun as you saw at the start of the thread did 2500 esque rounds with very little care, so if it started all lubed up from the start I think it is a reasonable assumption that it would do 3000 rounds no problem? How many situations can you ever picture where you will be going past 3000 rounds in one session? I love that hk, but the proprietary parts on it would be hard to support, and best or not, it is still a mechanical device, meaning it can break as well, and when it does you will have to wait a while to get replacement bits. If you really want one, go get one, but my money would be on a standard di gun, and put the difference into ammo and training to learn how to run that thing right.
 
The locking and rocking of a Swill Arms Mag is not the same as the crude lock and rock of a mag into a crude VZ / CZ rifle. Much smoother and more refined with the Swiss Arms.
Back before the days of 10 round AR Pistol mags...I used clamped Swiss Arms mags in 3 gun matches. I have won every three gun match I've ever entered using the clamped Swiss Arms
mags which are faster to reload than AR Mags. There is less movement / distance in the Swiss Arms mag change. When locking a Swiss Arms mag in place it is very positive, it's either latched
or not. I've had the opportunity to train many new recruits / shooters with both the AR and Swiss Arms mag system. I have experience much better results with the rock and lock Swiss Arms system.

Often seating a full capacity AR mag with a closed bolt is a problem, especially with shooters that are not very strong. Some courses I've been on teach to down load the AR mag to make seating on a
closed bolt easier, this is not necessary with the rock and lock Swiss Arms System.

The debate over the AR / M16 FOW is funny. Everyone who uses the system, or is issued the system will defend it to their death. The facts are that it's a pretty good gun, as long as it's made from a
quality company and has good mags. There is no doubt in my mind that the HK 416 is a better gun. The debate is over how much better...is it worth the extra expense better...is it required for what I'm
using it for better (5 or 10 round civi mags in a semi auto system?)...will I get a better Service Rifle Score with it better....

The facts are Clear: Those who have a choice of anything they want and are at the top of the "Food Chain" (US Army CAG + others) use the HK 416. Why, because it's better.
I used a true Colt Defense M4 on a course with a US Federal Agency, I kept it wet and it functioned flawlessly...I had been issued some of those new plastic L3 mags with the metal inserts / lips.
That said, although I loved using that M4, I would never trade my HK 416 or SG553 for that M4.

Years ago....the M14 guys defended their gun to the death and ridiculed the M16 FOW's...now it's the M16 FOW's guys defending their beloved guns to the death...Hard pill to swallow but there are better guns
in use than the standard M4 / M16.

The debate will go on....

Rich
 
Rich LPS said:
The locking and rocking of a Swill Arms Mag is not the same as the crude lock and rock of a mag into a crude VZ / CZ rifle. Much smoother and more refined with the Swiss Arms.
Back before the days of 10 round AR Pistol mags...I used clamped Swiss Arms mags in 3 gun matches. I have won every three gun match I've ever entered using the clamped Swiss Arms
mags which are faster to reload than AR Mags. There is less movement / distance in the Swiss Arms mag change. When locking a Swiss Arms mag in place it is very positive, it's either latched
or not. I've had the opportunity to train many new recruits / shooters with both the AR and Swiss Arms mag system. I have experience much better results with the rock and lock Swiss Arms system.

Often seating a full capacity AR mag with a closed bolt is a problem, especially with shooters that are not very strong. Some courses I've been on teach to down load the AR mag to make seating on a
closed bolt easier, this is not necessary with the rock and lock Swiss Arms System.

The debate over the AR / M16 FOW is funny. Everyone who uses the system, or is issued the system will defend it to their death. The facts are that it's a pretty good gun, as long as it's made from a
quality company and has good mags. There is no doubt in my mind that the HK 416 is a better gun. The debate is over how much better...is it worth the extra expense better...is it required for what I'm
using it for better (5 or 10 round civi mags in a semi auto system?)...will I get a better Service Rifle Score with it better....

The facts are Clear: Those who have a choice of anything they want and are at the top of the "Food Chain" (US Army CAG + others) use the HK 416. Why, because it's better.
I used a true Colt Defense M4 on a course with a US Federal Agency, I kept it wet and it functioned flawlessly...I had been issued some of those new plastic L3 mags with the metal inserts / lips.
That said, although I loved using that M4, I would never trade my HK 416 or SG553 for that M4.

Years ago....the M14 guys defended their gun to the death and ridiculed the M16 FOW's...now it's the M16 FOW's guys defending their beloved guns to the death...Hard pill to swallow but there are better guns
in use than the standard M4 / M16.

The debate will go on....

Rich
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I haven't disagreed with anything you have stated here. Maybe I was being a bit biased on the rock and lock because the short time I tried a swiss it did have a smooth rock and lock, but my vz was not quite as slick so I will leave it at that, maybe it was all me.

and again I have already said the hk416 is definitely superior to the standard ar, but would you recommend a new shooter a 416 at 4k? or a reasonably nice quality ar like a core15 or daniel defense at around 1500 and spend the rest of the money on training and practice? Again money no object, why not get the hk416, but for 90% of the civilians that run these type of rifles would you recommend a 416? Will they really benefit from its added capabilities? Like I said a quality di ar can go 3k rounds no problem with some love. how many people shoot that many rounds per day? then we go to the hk which some claim can do double that with ease, if that were so how many civilians do you know that shoot 6000 rounds a day? That is an absurdly capable rifle that is way overboard for civ use. Would I love to have one? Absolutely it is a stellar rifle of that I have no doubt, but it really isnt necessary. Now am I willing to argue for the 416 to replace the standard m4 over time on major mil organizations? Sure why not? Same manual of arms as the standard m4, with superior reliability and accuracy, it's a win win.


And just for the sake of arguement I should add that now that I have shot a scar(very few rounds) it feels nearly identical to an ar, except a slower cyclic rate in fa, so for those with more experience on those how does that stack up against either the standard m4 or 416?
 
Needs are determined by the user and not what you think make sense for your self.

Hk416 has the obvious advantages over other AR/carbine rifles. Forget about piston vs DI it's really about Heckler & Koch ability to make cutting edge rifles and they don't need to hire some ex -special forces guy to push their product either for advertisement or to sell a new company that will pride it self on the fact they stake their gas key properly or they follow some old Colt data plan that is out of date .


FA
Suppressed
Amphibian or waterborne operations
Reliability

HK beats the competition hands down overall.

Lets not even get into there barrel life and performance edge they have over most companies. Fact is HK is top dog out there and the more I have looked into it the more I find the every company loves to spin a tail on them. Most of the current AR craze is aimed at the civilian market where HK and many other big name companies are after the Military contracts.

One thing to consider is the competition is right up there in prices as well, just look at KAC SR15 14.5 $3400 OST or how much does a Noveske or POF cost again.
 
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