The Canadian Military’s Brittle Animal: the C1 Sterling SMG

[I Dont Care About You]

I've not shot a Sterling, but I have shot a Sten a few times and found it much better than its reputation had me expecting. I expect the Sterling would be more polished and even better.

Keep in mind the functioning Stens today have had many decades of vetting that ensures they work properly. When they were originally made there were certainly problems with mass produced parts not always working well together.

The Sterling has a different feel from the Sten because the pistol grip is located in the middle of the gun rather than at the back end.

While this is true, remember that the push-through safety was a retrofit. I don't know what year it was adopted but the majority of Sten guns were made without that feature, and it was added later by field armourers. It wasn't always available, and many men trained before it was there.

I highly doubt the forward bolt lock was installed by field armourers. It required a new cocking handle as well as a hole to be drilled into the receiver in a specific spot. That would require a jig and a drill press.

 

[I Dont Care About You]

My dad spoke of several guys in his battalion in Normandy having negligent discharge when their Sten guns fired when they jumped into a trench under fire , round went into their foot , there was a rumour of a SIW , Self Inflicted Wound charge & a court martial

I call BS on this story. The means by which a Sten fires when dropped is the bolt has to be forward on an empty chamber and a loaded mag installed. The gun has to be dropped HARD on its butt which drives the bolt backwards far enough to strip, load and fire a live round.

There is NO possibility of that occurring AND shooting one's self in the foot. A guy jumping into a trench and shooting himself in the foot, is the result of a finger on the trigger.

The sear on a Sten is quite robust and has a large engagement surface. They don't slip. Also, the forward bolt lock was specifically designed to prevent the scenario described above.

 

[Claven2]

I call BS on this story. The means by which a Sten fires when dropped is the bolt has to be forward on an empty chamber and a loaded mag installed. The gun has to be dropped HARD on its butt which drives the bolt backwards far enough to strip, load and fire a live round.

There is NO possibility of that occurring AND shooting one's self in the foot. A guy jumping into a trench and shooting himself in the foot, is the result of a finger on the trigger.

The sear on a Sten is quite robust and has a large engagement surface. They don't slip. Also, the forward bolt lock was specifically designed to prevent the scenario described above.

Jumping into a trench under fire is a stressful situation at the best of times, and such soldiers would be likely to have the sten loaded and not on safe.

I think trigger control is, by a very vast margin, the most likely culprit for any bullet wound to the feet or legs when maneuvering around with a loaded smg, including the sten.

 

[ipscgraz]

The issue with guns like the C1 SMG is usually operator error. My dad told me about one guy in training who got confused and decided to try and close the bolt on it with a round in the magazine and had a negligent discharge because of it.

Some people could NOT understand what "open bolt" meant.

Carefully exiting a truck quietly at night in Wainwright to go for a quiet walk in the woods and the guy beside you lets off a 9mm blank. No sense being quiet any more.

 

[Mk VII]

The 1955 pamphlet on The Sub-Machine Gun (mostly about the Sterling but with notes on the Sten) makes it clear that any gun found without the push-through cocking handle should be reported to the REME for modification or exchange as soon as possible, and that in the interim, a magazine should never be applied to it without the cocking handle already in the safety slot.

 

[purple]

I shot the C1 SMG extensively and really liked it. It seemed peculiar that it had a bayonet lug to take the FNC1 bayonet -quite a desperation move.

There was a drill PAM on the SMG. We did a lot of arms drill with it at the old Armoured Corps School in Camp Borden. I still have a pic of carrying it with fixed bayonet on graduation parade in 1965.

 

[Bartok5]

I shot the C1 SMG extensively and really liked it. It seemed peculiar that it had a bayonet lug to take the FNC1 bayonet -quite a desperation move.

There was a drill PAM on the SMG. We did a lot of arms drill with it at the old Armoured Corps School in Camp Borden. I still have a pic of carrying it with fixed bayonet on graduation parade in 1965.

The Bayonet on the SMG was meant for POW escort...

 

[purple]

The Bayonet on the SMG was meant for POW escort...

Nobody ever told us that.

 

[Rowdy Yates]

Nobody ever told us that.

Used it in the 80's waiting for the C8 which never appeared during my 6 years. Our regiment had no problems with it. My only observation was that it was not terribly accurate.

 

[9.3 Hunter]

The Bayonet on the SMG was meant for POW escort...

yes - Bayonets on SMGs for PW escorts and control etc. was the norm/routine ... its in the PW MP Training Manuals and in courses ... SMG + Pistols were personal wpns. We only had one GPMG per Platoon HQ and Sects also had M72s.

BTW - During RV85 Wainwright the caught soldiers did not like that (me <---- DCO 10 MPPL at the time responsible for the Div PW Cage) memories (they made my guys keep scabbards on - marked with Yellow tape

 

[I Dont Care About You]

The issue with guns like the C1 SMG is usually operator error.

Isn't that usually the case with all firearms?

Actually on R (semi auto) we could hit a figure 11 at 100 yards I was amazed.
it had adjustable sights so it could be sighted in
and we had a team weapons tech with us
Big improvement over the STEN

Many years ago I took my Sten MK2 to a Service Rifle match. The match was held on a 100 yd range. I did not come in last place.

The Sten is a lot more effective than most people give it credit for. To be fair the guns we have today have had decades of vetting to ensure they work properly. During the war, lemons were an issue to be sure.

 

[HeadDamage]

The C1 was more accurate than most give it credit for. Firing from an open bolt required you to hold your form better, once you understood that it was not bad at 100m.

 

[seaforth72]

The stem mk2 was a perfectly safe if the safety is used. Alas, many users carried it with the safety disengaged.

The safety of a mk2 is applied by pushing in the cocking lever, making it impossible to move the bolt.

Yes pushing the cocking handle in was a safety but this was not so on the early Sten Guns, though some were retrifitted with the new cocking handles and had a hole drilled in the receiver.

All Sten Guns had a safety where the bolt could be drawn to the rear and roted slightly to the left (counterclockwise) so that the cocking handle engaged in the notch.

I trained on the Sten Mk. II in 1969 and then used the SMG C1 for years. Both were quite safe when used properly. I disagree with the conclusions of this video. This was human error, not a fault of the SMG C1.

 

[Petrock]

Not only that, but failing to properly identify allies and foes. Bird gunners in particular had a tough time of it, but friendly fire still goes on to this day.

Fratricide isn't friendly

 

[Petrock]

Not that I doubt this story per se, but why would a GI trade his Thompson’s to a Canadian company if they are so much better?

Realistically the Thompson is a very heavy gun, and after you empty the magazine, 45acp would be hard to come by in the Canadian logistics chain. Not to mention what your sergeant would have to say about things when you turn up with a non-issue arm.

For booze..... they did make these trades as the Africa war was nasty. Later the SAS acquired their guns through government channels, but they're famous for stealing what they need. Or what ever is shiny lol

 

[LUCK12]

For booze..... they did make these trades as the Africa war was nasty. Later the SAS acquired their guns through government channels, but they're famous for stealing what they need. Or what ever is shiny lol

My Warrant told us that stealing was a harsh word and it should be always replaced with liberate. Also one never went to detention barracks for liberating an item , it was for being caught liberating.

 

[dan belisle]

Not that I doubt this story per se, but why would a GI trade his Thompson’s to a Canadian company if they are so much better?

Realistically the Thompson is a very heavy gun, and after you empty the magazine, 45acp would be hard to come by in the Canadian logistics chain. Not to mention what your sergeant would have to say about things when you turn up with a non-issue arm.

Booze will make people do odd things. - dan

 

[Petrock]

My Warrant told us that stealing was a harsh word and it should be always replaced with liberate. Also one never went to detention barracks for liberating an item , it was for being caught liberating.

Now referred to as tactical acquiring, or my favorite, reallocation of resources.

The SAS did outright steal from the Germans. Everything. Fuel, food, ammo, and in a few cases even people. They'd take things from sleeping axis troops, tie their shoe laces together, take hair, even clothing right off the dudes. All for scrounging, or generally ####ing with the Italians and Germans