The End of Canned Lion Hunting

[Levi Garrett]

I have hunted and guided over bait, baited for trapping and baited animals for research so I might have an opinion on this too.
I'm wondering if you are confusing ethics with challenge though. Baiting definately increases the odds of harvesting an animal, otherwise people wouldn't do it. It doesn't guarantee a harvest though. Food is a great motivator, but it doesn't cancel out an animals senses or flight instinct, it just gives them a reason to come around and hopefully stick around in your chosen spot. For every deer that will eat out of your hand or bear that lays down in the doughnut pile, there are two that only come in after dark or shy away at the slightest fidget or puff of wind. Using bait to lessen the time in the field only works in the context that you have some other guy (the guide) baiting for you and can show up later when an animal is coming in regularily. This is more a product of guiding in that good guides can take you out to see animals not coming to bait too, since they spend endless hours out scoping and learning what lives in their territory. Nothing replaces time spent in the field.

How you choose to hunt is personal, and should be as long as its legal AND the harvest is done in a humane manner. I think most people would agree that not all challenging hunts are ethical and not all ethical hunts are challenging. Back to the OP though- I'd personally be much more proud of baiting in a wild lion than shooting a free ranging one that was raised.

Very well done
I know we all think of it as a big cat if it had any human contact , but its a Lion , and it will tear your face off , if it can get to you , thats fair game..

 

[Boomer]

Iron sighted was just a stripped down comparison and throwback reference to the Roosevelt and Capstick and Hemingway Days when it was about the man and the wild. Not about the gear, or the limited time one has to get a kill, making it OK to tip the odds even further against the lion for the sake of convenience.

My question to you is this; if the target animal was a deer, a duck, or a hog, would you feel differently about baiting than if was a bear or a lion? Some folks seem to have a problem with hunting any "Bambized" game, and can never think about lion hunting without images of the Lion King dancing in their heads. To them lion hunting is wrong regardless of the method used. I'm just trying to get a handle on the direction of your objection to lion hunting over bait, or is it an objection to lion hunting in general?

Botswana does not allow lion hunting over bait, while most of the rest of East Africa does. One consideration that has not been brought up thus far is that the client has a better opportunity of accessing a lion on a bait, so baiting could prevent the killing of a large number of adolescent lions. One problem with lions is that if you are in the open and close enough to access his trophy quality, he will probably be inclined to attack you, mature or adolescent.

From what I understand of the subject, outfitters in Africa need to do a better job with respect to lion trophies. Many adolescent (read not trophy quality) lions are taken when unscrupulous PHs push the clients to shoot maneless lions. Despite the crap presented in the Ghost and the Darkness, mature male lions have manes, in Tsavo or anywhere else. They also tend to have worn down teeth, which are difficult to see on a lion which is partially obscured in the bush or tall grass. The rule of thumb is that if you can see the ears, the mane is not full. The killing of adolescent lions has become such problem that Tanzania has severely restricted the lion harvest, which in turn has driven up the price. If sustainable lion hunting is to continue, it must become even more selective, so there must be better opportunities to access the quality of a perspective trophy.

 

[yyyyy]

My question to you is this; if the target animal was a deer, a duck, or a hog, would you feel differently about baiting than if was a bear or a lion?

Absolutely.

It is called hunting... Not baiting, waiting, or hiding and shooting.

I think the verb means to go looking for, or at least that is how I have always thought of it in the classical sense.

Of course, we are applying this to vacation and sport hunting in Africa, and not to a guy starving in the woods, so of course there are different ethical and other concerns based on the situation.

As a young man we hosted a National Geo production at our property, and saw the difficulty and challenges that went into getting an amazing photo, and how it was so much more difficult than "harvesting" an animal. Ever since I was converted to the old school style of hunting, and the even more difficult challenge of photography (which also lends to education, conservation, and protection). The skill and knowledge of the team and guides, the understanding of the environment and animals took a very high precedent over "gear and gadgets" and what they were able to accomplish with "knowledge" was far greater than those who had "equipment" also.

It is no easy feat tracking, stalking and harvesting any game animal on foot. Anyone with a checkbook can buy any "packaged" hunt they want, so much so that they can guarantee species on a hunt, including big 6. As such, I see zero skill or sport involved.

Kill a baboon, nail it to a tree crook, build hide, wait for leopard.

That isn't a hunt. You might as well play a video game.

However, anyone man enough to walk the same range where the leopard, buff, hippo, or whatever is known to be in ON FOOT, with a single rifle and guide, is OK with me.

 

[surfclod]

However, anyone man enough to walk the same range where the leopard, buff, hippo, or whatever is known to be in ON FOOT, with a single rifle and guide, is OK with me.

That guy, in my view, is an unethical cheat, only those who hunt with a flint knife while wearing a loincloth get any respect from me.

 

[Boomer]

Absolutely.

It is called hunting... Not baiting, waiting, or hiding and shooting.

I think the verb means to go looking for, or at least that is how I have always thought of it in the classical sense.

Of course, we are applying this to vacation and sport hunting in Africa, and not to a guy starving in the woods, so of course there are different ethical and other concerns based on the situation.

As a young man we hosted a National Geo production at our property, and saw the difficulty and challenges that went into getting an amazing photo, and how it was so much more difficult than "harvesting" an animal. Ever since I was converted to the old school style of hunting, and the even more difficult challenge of photography (which also lends to education, conservation, and protection). The skill and knowledge of the team and guides, the understanding of the environment and animals took a very high precedent over "gear and gadgets" and what they were able to accomplish with "knowledge" was far greater than those who had "equipment" also.

It is no easy feat tracking, stalking and harvesting any game animal on foot. Anyone with a checkbook can buy any "packaged" hunt they want, so much so that they can guarantee species on a hunt, including big 6. As such, I see zero skill or sport involved.

Kill a baboon, nail it to a tree crook, build hide, wait for leopard.

That isn't a hunt. You might as well play a video game.

However, anyone man enough to walk the same range where the leopard, buff, hippo, or whatever is known to be in ON FOOT, with a single rifle and guide, is OK with me.

I'm not much into leopard hunting, but anyone who would not be enthralled at seeing one of these guys come to a bait after hours of sitting motionless in a blind must be dead inside. Shooting over bait is not a snap decision. You have time to admire the animal and to more importantly decide if he is the one you want. This is hunting as real as any other method, and is hardly a video game.

The next few pictures show the problem one might have when not hunting lions over a bait, although the degree of difficulty is also determined by the type of country you find yourself hunting in. Here we've come across a very nice trophy lion.

Notice how his teeth have worn down and his ears are all but hidden by his mane.

If you are hunting in tall grass, you might have to shoot at a lion without having a very good look at him, and should that happen your chances of nailing a youngster like this are far greater, even though that might not be your intention. This one has not had the opportunity to pass his genes onto future generations, and once you have shot him, that 's the end of the line. The mature lion no longer breeds, and will soon be chased off by younger stronger males. Hunting over bait ensures you have the opportunity to be selective.

 

[jaydog]

Kill a baboon, nail it to a tree crook, build hide, wait for leopard.

I'm 100% against canned hunts, or 'hunters' that do nothing but pull a trigger and write a check, but I have to agree with Boomer on this baiting.
First off, watching a wild animal and knowing that you have eluded its keen senses is very rewarding and I have learned much from the animals I have worked with/hunted by doing this. Learning I just can't get by tracking them. Secondly, any experienced blind hunter will tell you that not everyone can be successful at that style of hunt. Try it sometime with your camera- no fidgiting, no scent, no snuffling, sleeping or eating or drinking. When your leg falls asleep because you have been sitting for 12h without adjusting, and you are cold enough you have been shivering on and off for a couple hours and then finally your prey starts to approach the bait, can you pull it together and not blow your cover? I get hired because I can, more than the average guy, and I work pretty hard at that.
Having the time to fully assess the animal and decide if you want to harvest it is another advantage of baiting. It was one of the big reasons we baited black bears when I guided rather than searching cutovers for them feeding. You could see the bear properly and pass on shooting animals that weren't right for that hunter.
This is where I'm surprised our application of 'ethics' doesn't overlap. I'm sure you are concerned that any animal that has been harvested has been given a fair chance to live and baiting can provide that chance in more than one way. Thats why I think its a good tool available to hunters.

Pull out your copy of Capsticks "Death in a Lonely Land" and read the story of his leopard hunt in Belize. Still think baiting is cheating?

 

[yyyyy]

Well, I guess the quesiton becomes do you feel there is a difference between harvest and hunt? Or more specifically shoot and harvest...

 

[Levi Garrett]

I like to hunt the first week, and harvest the second, you?
A for the big cats, I would hunt 'em , chez le still hunt method.Oh and stand over water or trails...

 

[Dogleg]

Well, I guess the quesiton becomes do you feel there is a difference between harvest and hunt? Or more specifically shoot and harvest...

Is that the question, or is the question whether someone's "feeling" is a proper reason to pass laws? I might feel that a canned lion hunt isn't a whole lot different than shooting farm animals, but it isn't normally illegal to shoot farm animals. Whether we think it is really hunting, or unfair, or distasteful is beside the point.
It might be human nature to want outlaw everything that we as individuals don't want to do, but if everything that I chose not to do was outlawed the list would be long. Isn't it better to choose our own behavior and leave it at that?

 

[Dogleg]

I like to hunt the first week, and harvest the second, you?
A for the big cats, I would hunt 'em , chez le still hunt method.Oh and stand over water or trails...

Did you know that in much of Africa, hunting over a waterhole is considered horribly unsporting? I'm sure that it's even illegal in some places. Exceptions seem to be made for beginners and bowhunters, but it is considered tacky behavior for a rifle hunter.

 

[jaydog]

Isn't it better to choose our own behavior and leave it at that?

Nicely put!! I'm all too accustomed to long debates about ethics but thats a tidy answer. I didn't know about the waterhole thing, but now that you say it, the reasons are obvious.

My original reply written offline seems kinda redundant now.......

Hmmmm. We might need Webster's to work this out.
Harvest(ing) is the PC term for killing an animal when you are out hunting and I'm still working on feeling 100% casual using it. I'm not even sure it helps hunters out to use that phrase, but whatever.
When a skunks head is in the garbage and I shoot him in the ass, thats shooting!!
When I'm headed out to my favorite hunting spot and a bear walks out beside the road and stands there while I get out, load and shoot, thats hunting. Lucky hunting and not overly challenging or glamorous, but still hunting.

More to your baiting concern--I'm reading that its the 'fair chase' part you are concerned about. Is stalking an animal more fair chase than baiting it? Both require skill. Both require the animal be unaware of your presence. Both require you to go out, find an area where your target animals are present and spend time scouting/baiting as you choose. Both provide the animal the opportunity to not show up or flee whenever it pleases them. So far they both seem pretty fair chase to me. Does bait increase residency time and therefore increase the odds of getting a clean shot? Definately.... if you don't blow your cover! You could extend that logic to say that baiting creates a situation where shots are less rushed and more planned so therefore more ethical, but lets just assume that everyone only takes high percentage shots.
I'm all for challenging hunts don't get me wrong, but as long as its a wild, unfenced animal in daylight where does outwitting stop and cheating start?

Now back to the OP. Has there been any follow up on what they are doing with these cats? Considering that all 37 wildcat species worlwide are CITES Appendix I or II listed, proper management is essential.

 

[Levi Garrett]

Warning , not for the faint -of- heart
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYvdFQyFW1U&NR=1

 

[paulz]

Keep in mind that some of these "farms" are several hundred square kilometers. Its not like you walk out to a blind in a small fenced enclosure, you do have to actually go out and find the Lion. I'm not a fan of canned hunting, but in Africa it is not quite as "canned" as it is in the U.S.

 

[Demonical]

100 years from now, when there are no lions left in the wild, people might re-think the wisdom of killing 3,000 animals, just to end farmed lions.

Case in point, the Scimitar Horned Oryx*. These things were extinct in Africa in the early 1900's, due to encroachment of humans into their habitat. But some American dude had caught some of these and brought to Texas. Today there are about 40,000 of these critters on ranches in Texas and none in "wild" Africa.

Something to think about before you condemn raising animals on farms.

Now it may be possible to re-introduce these Oryx into their native habitat, from the Texas farm raised stock, if Govt's and Game Biologists want it to happen.


* I hope I got the name correct...


Edit: Corrected the name.

 

[Dogleg]

I think you are thinking of the scimitar horned oryx, but your point is still valid.

 

[Demonical]

^ Thanks Dogleg, yeah I wasn't sure about the name.

 

[tjhaile]

100 years from now, when there are no lions left in the wild, people might re-think the wisdom of killing 3,000 animals, just to end farmed lions.

Case in point, the Scimitar Horned Oryx*. These things were extinct in Africa in the early 1900's, due to encroachment of humans into their habitat. But some American dude had caught some of these and brought to Texas. Today there are about 40,000 of these critters on ranches in Texas and none in "wild" Africa.

Something to think about before you condemn raising animals on farms.

Now it may be possible to re-introduce these Oryx into their native habitat, from the Texas farm raised stock, if Govt's and Game Biologists want it to happen.


* I hope I got the name correct...


Edit: Corrected the name.

+1. Animals that somebody owns won't go extinct. I don't think that the government has any business telling people what they can and cannot do with their own property.

The best way to ensure hunting is a sporting proposition is to shop around and patronise operations that meet your standards for fair chase.

 

[dan belisle]

I'm in SA right now. Some of these "farms" are thousands of acres. I'm not saying there aren't folks who let the lion out of the truck 50 feet from their hunter, but the places I've been here so far certainly aren't like that. I think they are letting emotionalism get the better of them, in this case. - dan

 

[Dogleg]

I'm in SA right now. Some of these "farms" are thousands of acres. I'm not saying there aren't folks who let the lion out of the truck 50 feet from their hunter, but the places I've been here so far certainly aren't like that. I think they are letting emotionalism get the better of them, in this case. - dan

Sadly emotionalism works. Find a issue that's emotional and can turn hunters against hunters, then work that angle.
Lions are perfect, since they are iconic and nobody can look at one without feeling something. It's hardwired into us since the days when our position at the top of the food chain was subject to debate. To gather a little more momentum for the "cause" play on the human angle of resenting everyone with more money then themselves. Rich bashing always plays well.