The Evil Black Talon vs good Mr Kevlar

Suputin said:
In my personal experience very few rounds will penetrate a Level 2 vest and those that do are seriously exotic with the exception being the IVI 115gr Ball
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Sorry There Suptin the IVI is 124 gr as issued to CF the 115 gr is for export only and will perform the same as any 115 gr fmj will perform against a level II vest Poorly
 
Suputin said:
Would you care to enlighten us as to what exactly constitutes the National Institute of Justice test protocol for bullet resistant vests?


Again you are using a large generalization. In my personal experience very few rounds will penetrate a Level 2 vest and those that do are seriously exotic with the exception being the IVI 115gr Ball round. If "many" rounds will defeat the vest, what dam good is it?


Not in my experience. Only two frangible rounds penetrated the vest, neither of which are available in Canada.

Again, I am not all that interested in the "everyone knows" type of information, only specific information that can be backed up with real data.
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As you already know the NIJ standard only tests specific rounds, other rounds such as Dynamite Nobel Geco 9mm rds in the BAT configuration penetrate the vests, as well as the PMC cookie cutter rounds, SNC frangible(9mm) will also defeat the level II armor. The protocol again only test specific rounds, based on what my be encountered and measure back deformation as a further issue, without getting into the debate over blunt force trauma, also the Eurpoean standard for armor is different, and is based on the much feared and touted 7.62x25 steel core. The NIJ standard is outdated and needs to be revised, to include different rounds, if you check the NIJ ratings it fails to address rounds like the 38 super and many other rounds on the market. My information is based on being their in person, having witnessed tests conducted by IALEFI & NTOA( do and engine search on these organizations), also assisted with testing for an armor company in the early 90's in Canada.

gadget
 
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Savage said:
Sorry There Suptin the IVI is 124 gr as issued to CF the 115 gr is for export only and will perform the same as any 115 gr fmj will perform against a level II vest Poorly
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Hello,

I've got some 76,77,78,79,86,94 issue 9mm IVI in the 64 round boxes, and they all came in at 116 grain average with the velocity avg. out of a Glock 17 @1300 fps or better.

Cheer's
Bill
 
Since we're talking about penetration how do the old PMC .38 tubular rounds penetrate? I saw quite a few around in the early 90's and lots of press, then they seemed to vanish - a friend shot some at the range through a timberwolf carbine, loud but no recoil and low POI. I think the bullet was brass which should give good penetration. Anyone know what happened and how well they penetrated?
 
I forgot to post it but just for interest sake I tried to stab a knife through the kevlar vest. The vest was placed on top of a bucket of wet phonebook and using a two handed grip I stabbed downwards as hard as I could without pulling something. :D

The knife I chose was the badest, nastiest bladed stabbing machine I could get my hands on, a very sharp Sykes Fairbaine. If any bladed instrument could pierce a kevlar vest it is going to be this thing.

The result?

The knife did indeed pierce the vest but only to a depth of about an inch. It is slightly sobering to see that pointed blade sticking out the other side of 21 layers of kevlar. However an inch deep knife would is not going to be fatal. Uncomfortable and a bit messy maybe but not fatal.

Don't take this to mean I think a kevalr vest is sufficient protection from a stabbing knife attack but it will stop all but the most determined knife weilding assailants.
 
Suputin,
Assuming you are shooting the 9mm out of a hand gun (4-5" barrel)
Seeing any noticeable difference out of sub guns?
 
I didn't shoot anything out of a longer barrel so I can't comment on how that might effect the results. However, I don't think the fwe extra fps that a longer barrel would allow would make all that much difference.

The rounds that were stopped never made it further than 1/4 the way through the vest so it would take a huge jump in performance to get through the other 3/4 of the kevlar.
 
Slavex said:
the only HP handgun ammo I have seen reliably punch through vest after vest is my .50 AE 325 JHP stuff. It's freakin nasty, big hole in, bigger hole out. 9mm, .40, .45 no penetration at all. Just a nasty freakin bruise and burn if you were wearing the vest.
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Would you hazard a guess as to whether or not a .440 Cor bon would penetrate, considering the .50AE did?
 
Two factors that determine penetration are ballistic coefficient and velocity. The first is a combination of Sectional density and Form factor. Sectional density has a lot to do with bullet weight, Form factor is basically a bullet shape. So if you want the most penetration possible use heavier bullet (with in the calibres range - 147gr for 9mm) with a pointed profile; FMJ not HP!
 
Two factors that determine penetration are ballistic coefficient and velocity. The first is a combination of Sectional density and Form factor. Sectional density has a lot to do with bullet weight, Form factor is basically a bullet shape. So if you want the most penetration possible use heavier bullet (with in the calibres range - 147gr for 9mm) with a pointed profile; FMJ not HP!
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So little is known about how a bullet penetrates, that most people just take a bit of what they think they know and try to apply it to a situation about which they don't know. Usually it comes off sounding reasonable but is not correct.

Ballistic Coefficient is a measure of how well a bullet flies through air. It has little to nothing to do with how a bullet penetrates solid strata.

I actually tried what you are advocating and it absolutely does not hold water. The stuff that penetrated the vest was lightweight, fast and had a rounded or sharp nose (ie not a flat nose).

As a specific example of what I am talking about, compare the 115gr IVI FMJ round (which did penetrate the vest) vs the 158gr IMI FMJ round (which bounced off the vest).

Both bullets have a very similar profile. The major difference between them being weight. The heavy but slow bullet bounced while the light but fast bullet penetrated. If you compared BC's of these two, you'd find the heavy bullet has a higher BC.

So the factors which predicate kevlar penetration is shape and velocity. Weight is not a facter from what I have experienced.
 
Ballistic Coefficient is a measure of how well a bullet flies through air. It has little to nothing to do with how a bullet penetrates solid strata.
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yes and no; if the bullet won’t expand it applies as well…
I actually tried what you are advocating and it absolutely does not hold water. The stuff that penetrated the vest was lightweight, fast and had a rounded or sharp nose (ie not a flat nose).
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I'm sure there were other factors involved...I've seen tons of reports on gelatine, even clay and water jugs penetration and heavier bullets always penetrate more. Even for hunting you go with a heavier bullets even if they have less energy than a lighter one.
As a specific example of what I am talking about, compare the 115gr IVI FMJ round (which did penetrate the vest) vs the 158gr IMI FMJ round (which bounced off the vest).
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there is such thing as too slow of course, btw what calibre was that? ..38/ .357mag?
So the factors which predicate kevlar penetration is shape and velocity. Weight is not a facter from what I have experienced.
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So are you saying that if two bullets of different weights (let’s say 9mm 115gr and 124gr) travel at the same speed and have the same shape they will penetrate the same? I'm sure heavier bullet will dig deeper.
 
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158gr bullet was a 9mm? :confused: never heard of anything above 147gr in 9mm even my loading manual only goes up to 150gr...was a .38/.357 bullet used?

I know this is about kavver vests and not gelatine, so I guess it's possible that the priorities are different but personally I doubt it…
 
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