The fate of my shotgun

OK I did come across as too grumpy. If someone wants to cut off their barrel go ahead! But don't expect the short barrel to improve handling when shooting moving targets. Don't expect it to work better than a longer barrel for competition. 30" barrels are a ways away from being "obsolete" but you wouldn't know it from the large volume of posts on here asking about cutting down shotgun barrels. Trap guns have been 30" standard length for some time, and sporting clays guns are quickly evolving from 28" to 30" and even longer because they work better to smooth the swing on flying targets.
FWIW, my brother did have a short barrel .410 given to him by a gunsmith friend who shortened and re-choked the barrel to make it "handier" - No wonder it was a give away. He found out after some frustration while trying to hit things with it that the gun was basically ruined. Balance was off, swing jerky and uncontrolled, and point of impact too high. It was possible to use it like a rifle on sitting game and pests, and it worked quite effectively as a gopher and skunk gun. I'd predict similar results if you cut yours. If you have no intention of using it on flying birds or clays, why not! It might be fun.
 
Longwalker said:
OK now for a real test, take your 40 "competitors", and have them shoot against any 40 regulars at a sporting clays shoot. They would go home hanging their heads in shame. Not one of them would place ahead of a real shotgunner. Short barrels are a lot of fun for blasting all sorts of stuff, but they are NOT serious tools for shooting the targets that shotguns were intended for. Shotguns ( with the exception of slug guns) are not intended for "40 to 100 yards" - that is a very specialized, fringe activity. It is fun, no doubt, but hardly represents mainstream shotgun competition or hunting or self defence or any thing else of consequence.
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Hi Longwalker! When do I get the invite to try shoot clays?:D Would be a shame if a 12.5" could keep up with the real shotgunner. You will let me change chokes right? I agree the short stuff is specialized but it does do a better job than most people will give it credit for. Just need a shooter that can use their system to its full potential(I'm still learning). I think deer hunting at 100 yards would be ok for this one. Can get very good groups at 50 yards and hunting would include a stalk for me;). As far as self defence mine is the tool to use. Looking forward to trying the clays out! Bring a camera, I'm game!:D I think all shotguns have a place not just one or the other. A balanced O/U with 28" barrels is specialized too:p
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This with a 18" barrel would be an ideal single shot(yes I owned both length-13 and 18")
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Longwalker said:
OK I did come across as too grumpy. If someone wants to cut off their barrel go ahead! But don't expect the short barrel to improve handling when shooting moving targets. Don't expect it to work better than a longer barrel for competition. 30" barrels are a ways away from being "obsolete" but you wouldn't know it from the large volume of posts on here asking about cutting down shotgun barrels. Trap guns have been 30" standard length for some time, and sporting clays guns are quickly evolving from 28" to 30" and even longer because they work better to smooth the swing on flying targets.
FWIW, my brother did have a short barrel .410 given to him by a gunsmith friend who shortened and re-choked the barrel to make it "handier" - No wonder it was a give away. He found out after some frustration while trying to hit things with it that the gun was basically ruined. Balance was off, swing jerky and uncontrolled, and point of impact too high. It was possible to use it like a rifle on sitting game and pests, and it worked quite effectively as a gopher and skunk gun. I'd predict similar results if you cut yours. If you have no intention of using it on flying birds or clays, why not! It might be fun.
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Sorry I was writing the response to your original post when you responded again. I am looking for an invite to try clays. If any CGNer wants to see how bad a 12.5" barrel really is I would love the chance to give it a try. I am in the Winnipeg area and will bring a camera! Might be a fun day for both shooters!:D
 
Yes, I would take you up on that invitation. I am typically about a 75% shooter at sporting clays, which is at the top of the bottom 1/3 of the shooters around here ( or the bottom of the middle third) Really good shots make the rest of us look a little uncoordinated! I for one need all the help a well balanced and good fitting gun can give me, but it would be entertaining to see how many clays a 12.5" barrel in good hands could break!
 
Longwalker said:
Saskatoon Gun Club has a two day sporting clays shoot this coming weekend - 200 targets per day. I'm shooting Saturday. Coming?
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I would love too just to see what its all about but a 8.5 hr drive might be a bit much for a first time out event! I'm in Winnipeg! Would be fun to see how it would stack up against a more specialized shotgun for the clays. Would be fun regardless:D I know I would be smiling if I could hit more (lots more) than I miss! Would need to trade off half way through and judge both shotguns! Cheers
 
M12shooter said:
Nope, I've got a couple 26 inch barrels...and I love them. Might I suggest you post your friends 20/25 birds with 20 inch tubes feat in the Trap/Skeet/Sporting Clays section and see what feedback arrives...;)
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Hey that's great you love the 26" barrels you have. I have 26", 28", and 18" barrels that I like.

You may suggest anything you like... doesn't mean anyone will take you up on your suggestion! :p I don't see how your suggestion relates to my point that short barrel shotguns are not always just noise makers?
 
I have a cut down single 16 gauge that I love to carry around for grouse and just going for a walk in the woods. It used to have a 30" full choke and was all but useless on small game because anything close was blasted into hamburger meat. Now, it is perfect for use in the thickets. I stay with smaller shot sizes like 7 1/2 or 8 for a denser pattern and it seems to work well on ditch chickens.

Personally, I would try cutting it down to different lengths before going down to such an extreme of 18 1/2 inches. Break actions bascially have little action length, unlike pumps, bolts, levers and autos. I have my single cut down to 25" and find it still nicely swingable and well balanced in the hand. Also, if I'm holding it by the grip like a pistol, the barrel is still nicely off the ground. You can always cut it shorter if you want too later, but you can never lengthen it. Too short is about as usefull as too long.
 
I was whacking off the useless portion of barrel length from Winchester and Cooey single shots long before they stopped production of them. Barrel length has nothing to do with pattern at any given range, but the choice of shot size does, as does having an adjustable choke installed on the gun. I had some made up with PolyChokes and later with screw in chokes, and some were left cylinder bore and fitted with rifle sights. All of them served the intended purpose quite well, which was as a bush range big game and chicken gun that could be easily carried throughout the day without fatigue.

As for what the shotgun was originally designed for, it was designed for fighting. Consider the design of the 18th Century short brass barreled muskatoons with the bell shaped muzzles used for ship board fighting. A 12 bore Winchester single shot cut down to 20" (my preference) with a PolyChoke installed has a similar profile. Thus a short barreled single shot shotgun when used for self defense from 2 or 4 legged predators most accurately follows the shotguns origins.
 
Boomer, I respectfully beg to differ with your assertion that the shotgun was originally designed for fighting.
The best reference I can find on the subject is WW Greener's The Gun and its Development. Published in 1881. Greener defines the modern shotgun from origins in early pinfire cartridge arms. It was the development of cartridges and choke boring that marks the departure from muskets and those developments allowed the sport of wingshooting to develop and flourish. A musketoon certainly was a military arm, and is similar to and related to the shotgun, but a shotgun it is not.
I find it a little discouraging that in a forum that was recently changed from "all shotguns" to one dedicated to "hunting and sporting" shotguns that the discussion is still dominated by those promoting tactical short barrelled defensive arms with rifle sights etc. Maybe the rest of us traditional shooters are obsolete after all! Ah well we all see things from our own perspective.
I thought the original poster was asking if he shortened his single shot at both ends and re-installed a full choke if he'd have a good handy bird gun. Maybe I am wrong, but my opinion remains no.
 
I smell the distinct odour of snobbery in a few posts......

LOL..... I watched a young guy absolutely SPANK some "serious" shotgunners with a short/cheap Maverick on the skeet field......and then proceed to repeat the punishment on the clays course :)

And for the record, "short" does not automatically mean "tactical".
My "sporting" shotguns consist of a 26" xtrema II and a 24" Benelli.....and I'd have no issue leaving the citori home one day and demonstrating the effectivness of either in person if you'd like to shoot a round :)

hitting what you point at is 99% shooter and 1% gun.....if you are a 75% shooter, cooey or Perazzi, you will remain a 75% shooter unless YOU improve.
 
icedragonmx said:
My 12.5" Rem took 2nd place in the shotgun stage of the Virden match out of 40 competitors. Ranges from 40 to 100 yards. I would not be embarassed if someone was to see me in the field or at the range with a "rediculous" thing like that. I had a single shot Model 37 that I regret selling after cutting the barrel to 18 1/2 inches. Made for a well balanced short shotgun and not a "firecracker". The long 30" barrel is a thing of the past:D
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What exactly were you shooting at for targetsat those ranges?
I can tell you that at my club your short barreled shotgun would not do well against our wobble trap shooters or our skeet shooters.
Cat
 
catnthehatt said:
What exactly were you shooting at for targetsat those ranges?
I can tell you that at my club your short barreled shotgun would not do well against our wobble trap shooters or our skeet shooters.
Cat
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I agree that a more suited shotgun would do better than mine. No argument there!

I just wanted to say that a shorter barrel is not going to ruin a shotgun;)

The comp I was involved in had a stage for a shotgun (any type/action) where it was a timed event with 10 targets (steel plates that needed to be knocked over). My shorty did all right against 20+" semis and pumps with dotsights/rifle sights and open barrel designs. Got beat by a good shooter with a Benelli M4 and dot sight. Most of the guys were having a laugh at the 12" and even the RO said a bit about the length (insert joke here) Still got the job done and is very easy to stow in a canoe and travel over difficult terrain with. A short shotgun is a handy thing and makes for a nice deal. Not the best for some stuff but we all know that:) Would me shooting 75% earn some respect? I do have most of a case of 7.5- 2 3/4" shells to bring to the party:D Just remember I am a novice with shooting clays so a hint or two would be sweet.
 
I shoot trap with my cut off CIL 402, it was fun. I can break em just fine as long as I get on em quick. I'll also be carrying it this fall during deer season for use on wayward grouse.
Mine's extra bubba because I didn't loctite the bead in well enough so it only lasted 3 slugs.
Mine was also cut down with a hunting use in mind, dunno if you've ever tried to fit two 6'2" guys, two rifles, and a shotgun into a Suzuki samurai, but it ain't easy. Shorter shotgun makes it easier.
My dad shoots a shiny new citori, and does pretty damn good with it, but he still grinned when he saw me breaking clays just off the house with my "shortgun"
 
Longwalker said:
Boomer, I respectfully beg to differ with your assertion that the shotgun was originally designed for fighting.
The best reference I can find on the subject is WW Greener's The Gun and its Development. Published in 1881. Greener defines the modern shotgun from origins in early pinfire cartridge arms. It was the development of cartridges and choke boring that marks the departure from muskets and those developments allowed the sport of wingshooting to develop and flourish. A musketoon certainly was a military arm, and is similar to and related to the shotgun, but a shotgun it is not.
I find it a little discouraging that in a forum that was recently changed from "all shotguns" to one dedicated to "hunting and sporting" shotguns that the discussion is still dominated by those promoting tactical short barrelled defensive arms with rifle sights etc. Maybe the rest of us traditional shooters are obsolete after all! Ah well we all see things from our own perspective.
I thought the original poster was asking if he shortened his single shot at both ends and re-installed a full choke if he'd have a good handy bird gun. Maybe I am wrong, but my opinion remains no.
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All sporting arms owe a lineage to martial arms, but that need not concern the man whose sole interest is the sporting aspect of shooting. An important consideration to me when choosing a gun is versatility. This is not as much a financial concern as it is a practical one as one is never really sure what target he might engage in the field. A shotgun, particularly a 12 ga, is in my opinion is most one of the most versatile arms available to us, primarily due to a wide selection of commercially available ammunition. This ammunition selection makes the shotgun useful for small game, pests, birds, and under certain conditions big game. But versatility and portability are closely tied.

The classic tightly choked goose gun, with it's long sighting plane, and sleek lines that are adored by the purist is better for pass shooting than anything else. But here's the rub. While it is better for knocking geese out of the stratosphere than its short barreled cousin, it is only slightly better, and is almost totally useless for anything else. It is natural for competitors of skeet, trap, and sporting clays to acquire guns that are designed for optimal performance within those genres, but IMHO our attention has become much too focused on the specialization of the practical firearms that we carry in the field. It is easier to specialize than it is to design a 'do it all" firearm, to the extent that many refuse to believe that the "one gun for all" even exists. A repeating shotgun with a short overall length and interchangeable or adjustable chokes is wonderfully versatile.

I want to be able to effectively engage any target of opportunity that I might come across in the field, be it a goose, a duck, a ptarmigan or grouse, or a caribou or moose. When I've set up camp and Mr. Bear decides he should investigate the strange smells, I have the confidence in my short shotgun to resolve the problem should it come to that.

When sporting shotguns hit the market, the limitations of the ammunition determined that barrels had to be long in order to acquire even mediocre performance by todays standards. In modern ammunition, the shot column makes maximum velocity very quickly, so the only advantage of the long barrel are the handling characteristics and sighting plane for those used to that style of shooting. Clearly this is a question of training not equipment.
 
icedragonmx said:
I agree that a more suited shotgun would do better than mine. No argument there!

I just wanted to say that a shorter barrel is not going to ruin a shotgun;)

The comp I was involved in had a stage for a shotgun (any type/action) where it was a timed event with 10 targets (steel plates that needed to be knocked over). My shorty did all right against 20+" semis and pumps with dotsights/rifle sights and open barrel designs. Got beat by a good shooter with a Benelli M4 and dot sight. Most of the guys were having a laugh at the 12" and even the RO said a bit about the length (insert joke here) Still got the job done and is very easy to stow in a canoe and travel over difficult terrain with. A short shotgun is a handy thing and makes for a nice deal. Not the best for some stuff but we all know that:) Would me shooting 75% earn some respect? I do have most of a case of 7.5- 2 3/4" shells to bring to the party:D Just remember I am a novice with shooting clays so a hint or two would be sweet.
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Sounds more like a match that is suited to short shotguns because of the lack of moving targets.
Interestingly enough, a shotgun builds most of its velocity in a very short length of the barrel, so the advantage given to longer barrels is mainly in the swingability ( tech term!:D) and sighting plane.
This is evident as soon as a moving target is involved.
One thing to remember when shooting clays is to disregard the front bead when swinging on the clay ( or live bird) - it swhould only be in your peripheral vision, like shooting an bow instinctively.
AND KEEP SWINGING!!!:dancingbanana:
Cat
 
iceman2 said:
Once you cut the barrel no more choke of any kind so close range only. Personally I see no use to a chopped single other than a toy to make noise, or very close use if stock is not cut. Just my opinion and worth what you paid for it.
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Choke is highly over rated in today's world of full skirted shotgun wads.
Cat
 
Squamch said:
I shoot trap with my cut off CIL 402, it was fun. I can break em just fine as long as I get on em quick.
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A few weeks ago I shot a couple of rounds of Trap with a guy shooting a short barrel pump gun. The muzzle blast from it was deafening even with plugs in. I will avoid shooting with him in the future.

Short shotguns may have their place but it's not on the Clay fields or in the Duck blinds.
 
Win/64 said:
A few weeks ago I shot a couple of rounds of Trap with a guy shooting a short barrel pump gun. The muzzle blast from it was deafening even with plugs in. I will avoid shooting with him in the future.

Short shotguns may have their place but it's not on the Clay fields or in the Duck blinds.
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I shot with a guy last prize shoot season who had a tacticooled 870 with a 20" barrel and a reddot on it, his wasn't terribly loud, especially compared to some of the old guys "shoot off" loads.
 
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