The FBI Just Settled the 9mm vs .40 vs .45 Debate
- Thread starter Painkillers
- Start date
I had a 'compact' version of the 1006, a 1066, back in the day. Was a very nice shooting 10mm!
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NAA.
I had a 'compact' version of the 1006, a 1066, back in the day. Was a very nice shooting 10mm!
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NAA.
I was around a few Agents that hated shooting the 10mm, all ammo was full power loads, carry or plinking or training it didn't matter. I spent a week with these guys on a shooting range, round count was guesstimated to be 600-1000rd for the week. They were beat by the time Friday rolled around.
I liked that compact 10mm, I had a M645 that spent a fair amount of time in the holster.
RCMP?
I still have a compact 45 of that series. Always wanted the 10 too, but never came across one. - danI had a 'compact' version of the 1006, a 1066, back in the day. Was a very nice shooting 10mm!
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- Location
- Vancouver Island, BC
I have the 1006 in 10mm and it's really nice. I wish I could find one of the 40 S&W barrel kits for it to go through all the 40 S&W I have lying around.
Full power double tap loads are pretty spicy.
Full power double tap loads are pretty spicy.
Which was ultimately a failure and we are all back to 9mm.
Yes, there are going to be the die hard fanboys who will never let go and never concede that 9mm is better than 40, but there is no denying that the popularity of 40 dropped off a cliff in recent years. Major police forces have gone back to 9mm after years with the 40 and there is a reason for that.
So, here's a question for the LEO's. The FBI guy brings up some great points that I've never thought of before, that being the problem with light grain projectiles and barrier penetration. Whether that barrier is a forearm (the AK 47 analogy) or heavily boned structures like shoulder joint enfilade trajectories. James asks the FBI guy that without endorsing, what type of ammo should civilians be looking to buy. The response was heavy weight, +P type ammo, the stuff branded as LEO ammo. Here's the question and the conundrum though. Whenever I look at this type of ammo, it's nickel washed brass cased, 147 grain, hollow points. Are LEO's using hollow points as duty ammo? I was of the understanding that hollow points speak to some sort of criminal intent? If so, how are cops being issued it?
Didn't this happen about a decade ago?
Edit: OK never mind, I get it, they're giving the history of the FBI's decision making which of course drives the decision of law enforcement agencies all over this continent at least.
Edit: OK never mind, I get it, they're giving the history of the FBI's decision making which of course drives the decision of law enforcement agencies all over this continent at least.
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Go figure, it took them a few decades to figure out what they learned over a century ago.
Slow, heavy for caliber bullets penetrate well, and are relatively easy for "trained" shooters to control, as well as newbies, pressed into service or learning to shoot.
I'm really not dissing them, and I'm glad they got back to something that works well for most shooters.
The 10mm cartridges are good IMHO, so are most of the pistols I've shot them in. They certainly aren't for everyone, and some folks just can't get over the recoil.
I'm still a revolver aficionado. I like semi autos, and will admit it's easier and handier to carry and reload magazines than opening a crane, dumping the cases, refilling the cylinder from a speed loader, closing the crane, and getting back into firing mode.
If I had to learn to use the semi auto as a job skill, I would do it without question.
It's interesting to hear real life issues with the weapons issued to actual field users.
Maybe the Brits had it right with the 38 Weblys and their 700fps, 200 grain bullets after all????
Slow, heavy for caliber bullets penetrate well, and are relatively easy for "trained" shooters to control, as well as newbies, pressed into service or learning to shoot.
I'm really not dissing them, and I'm glad they got back to something that works well for most shooters.
The 10mm cartridges are good IMHO, so are most of the pistols I've shot them in. They certainly aren't for everyone, and some folks just can't get over the recoil.
I'm still a revolver aficionado. I like semi autos, and will admit it's easier and handier to carry and reload magazines than opening a crane, dumping the cases, refilling the cylinder from a speed loader, closing the crane, and getting back into firing mode.
If I had to learn to use the semi auto as a job skill, I would do it without question.
It's interesting to hear real life issues with the weapons issued to actual field users.
Maybe the Brits had it right with the 38 Weblys and their 700fps, 200 grain bullets after all????
I think that the point is that 9 mm rounds became highly developed enough that the other higher calibre rounds were no longer even equal to them. But you do have to buy the special police rounds (if you can find them here), the target stuff just never changes.
Also from the FBI:
"Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound
by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the
bigger bullet."
https://ia601306.us.archive.org/27/...andgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness.pdf
"Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound
by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs
from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the
bigger bullet."
https://ia601306.us.archive.org/27/...andgun-wounding-factors-and-effectiveness.pdf
If you'e thinking of thr Hague Convention, it only protects foreign soldiers. Governments are free to do whateer they want to their own people.
I sold the 1066 quite a few years ago via the EE here on CGN. So, it was up for grabs at some point. Someone out there has it.
I really liked it but had acquired another Colt Delta [had one circa mid 1990's but had previously sold it] then also later a stainless Delta Gold Cup, too. That S&W was heavy for a 'compact', though.
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Curiosity got the best of me once & I did shoot a couple mags of factory .40 S&W thru that S&W 1066 to see if it would work. The caveat being the shorter round is only held by the extractor to the breach face. And the case mouth does not headspace in the 10mm chamber of the barrel as it would with the longer 10mm round. Of course, it is said NOT to do this.
Anyway, it worked flawlessly & had no other issues. No fail to feed, fire, extract or eject. Accuracy was no real discernable difference from the factory 10mm ammo or reloads I'd made for it.
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